TAS Plugin

[John]

Of course it would get abused. The question is, who actually cares about that? A fair few jumpers I have spoken to consider Casual's TAS one of the best jump videos even knowing it's a TAS... So is the reason some people are worried about it is that they might be less popular? Considering I don't really give a crap about peoples ego, the only downside I can see is for tournaments.

Well anyway, at some point or another it will become public. Would probably pay to get ahead of the game.

Well, based on this thread, a lot of people care, myself included. Frankly, I don't trust the community enough to think that people wouldn't pass of tool assisted runs as legit and abuse it in other ways. Also, in my eyes (and I'm sure many others), a public TAS plugin would completely fuck the speedrunning community. I've said twice already, and I'll say it a third time - I am NOT releasing the plugin to the public. I'm not really sure what's being discussed in this thread anymore, I think I've made it quite clear. Now if someone else wants to make their own plugin and release it, good for them, but I'm not going to be the one responsible for destroying the community.

it's called a general discussion of a tas plugin
and the vote of legalization of a tas plugin
it does not have to be your plugin
derails happen and you're gonna have to deal with it

and majority of this thread isn't even shitposting and rather actual discussion so

[Vexon]

Some guy spends 10 days moving logs to build a house and then superman comes in and does it in 10 seconds.
Who gets more respect?

Jumping is impressive to watch because it's so hard, and like I said and will keep on saying, challenging things appeal to people. It wouldn't be cool if someone flawlessed gateway with TAS because you would barely even have to lift a finger. It wouldn't even be seen as cool or impressive anymore and people would lose interest in jumping.

[Zigzati]

Some guy spends 10 days moving logs to build a house and then superman comes in and does it in 10 seconds.
Who gets more respect?

The point of TAS isn't to overtake or try to 1-up legitimate jumpers... the point of TAS is to see what kind of cool stuff you can do.

Jumping is impressive to watch because it's so hard, and like I said and will keep on saying, challenging things appeal to people. It wouldn't be cool if someone flawlessed gateway with TAS because you would barely even have to lift a finger. It wouldn't even be seen as cool or impressive anymore

If somebody flawlessed gateway with TAS, they wouldn't be trying to seem more skilled than actual runners... they're just doing it to have fun and see what's possible.

people would lose interest in jumping.

People already are losing interest in jumping. If anything, TAS would help keep it alive. Sure jumping is impressive, but it's also been around for 7 years. It's getting old. Most trickjumps have already been done. Most maps have already been run. TAS would be cool to see what's possible. I don't think this would hinder legitimate jumping at all; legitimate runs would still be really impressive and I'm sure it would be trivially easy to make some sort of tool that checks whether demos are legit or not.


IMO, TAS wouldn't make legitimate jumping any less impressive. You know they're fake, and the point of them isn't to seem more impressive than actual runs or trickjumps; they're to see what's possible and to just have fun. I'm not sure why you think everybody has some sort of malicious intent, people just want to do have fun and see cool stuff.

[protist ?]

Some guy spends 10 days moving logs to build a house and then superman comes in and does it in 10 seconds.
Who gets more respect?

The point of TAS isn't to overtake or try to 1-up legitimate jumpers... the point of TAS is to see what kind of cool stuff you can do.

I think the point here is that if anyone could just roll up with their TAS and get some nutty run of Gateway that real jumpers would lose interest in getting a real run. What's the point of speedrunning anymore if it will never be as good as the crazy TAS strats/times. Sure you still top the Tempus leaderboards, but your run would always be overshadowed by someone else's TAS run in speed and beauty.

A good speedrun nowadays shines because of the immense skill of the jumper as well as the beauty of their jump. However, a TAS run will always look better than a normal speedrun simply because it can be perfect. When every normal run has to compete with a TAS run's beauty, they will no longer be admired for their aesthetic quality but only for the skill of the jumper -- this would fundamentally detract from the run.

TAS runs are like photoshopped pictures in magazines. Sure they are sexy as hell but when the new standard becomes something that is unattainable in real life it detracts from the beauty of the reality.

[Vexon]

The point of TAS isn't to overtake or try to 1-up legitimate jumpers... the point of TAS is to see what kind of cool stuff you can do.

You can already use tools to see whats possible thanks to nolem. You can save your velocity and position and see whats possible.

If somebody flawlessed gateway with TAS, they wouldn't be trying to seem more skilled than actual runners... they're just doing it to have fun and see what's possible.

We already know whats possible, a flawless run..

People already are losing interest in jumping. If anything, TAS would help keep it alive.

Or it would pull the trigger to the last bullet needed to kill jumping.

Most trickjumps have already been done.

...and that's why there are movies that keep coming out? We will never do every trick jump possible. There's always new maps, and new undiscovered trickjumps loaded with potential.
 

Most maps have already been run.

And there's still time to improve and there's always new maps...like i said.

 

TAS would be cool to see what's possible.

once again nolem made a plugin which saves your velocity and position already...so no need.

I'm sure it would be trivially easy to make some sort of tool that checks whether demos are legit or not.

Well it would still be easy for someone in the public to change TAS making it even harder to see if it's legit or not. Also, why would we release if we don't have a tool for that yet...

I'm not sure why you think everybody has some sort of malicious intent

coming from you that's a pretty big thing to say considering your history. Yes not everyone would abuse it, but there's plenty of people who would. This is the JUMP COMMUNITY, and the internet. It's loaded full of people like that.


Protist knows what's up

[plep]

I think the point here is that if anyone could just roll up with their TAS and get some nutty run of Gateway that real jumpers would lose interest in getting a real run. What's the point of speedrunning anymore if it will never be as good as the crazy TAS strats/times. Sure you still top the Tempus leaderboards, but your run would always be overshadowed by someone else's TAS run in speed and beauty.

A good speedrun nowadays shines because of the immense skill of the jumper as well as the beauty of their jump. However, a TAS run will always look better than a normal speedrun simply because it can be perfect. When every normal run has to compete with a TAS run's beauty, they will no longer be admired for their aesthetic quality but only for the skill of the jumper -- this would fundamentally detract from the run.

TAS runs are like photoshopped pictures in magazines. Sure they are sexy as hell but when the new standard becomes something that is unattainable in real life it detracts from the beauty of the reality.

[catfoosh]

Why are you people arguing? It's up to the creator of the plugin if they want to release it not the community

[nolem]

Why are you people arguing? It's up to the creator of the plugin if they want to release it not the community

At this point I think they're just discussing what would happen IF a public plugin was released, regardless of whether it's mine or not. I guess that's fine because I did name the thread "TAS plugin" and not "nolems TAS plugin".

[Afterglow]

Zigzati didn't you cheat a bouncehop run and try and pass it off as legit...? Your argument is completely ridiculous knowing your history. People do have malicious intent... you're evidence of it.

I can't even believe this is even an argument. I don't care if you can do "cool" things with TAS, it does not take skill. Any mediocre jumper can create clean looking jumps/speedruns with TAS. If it's detectable, I wouldn't mind a TAS plugin being out there. My only problem is if it's undetectable.

This isn't about egos or whatever, it's about keeping the skill in jumping. TAS removes the skill ceiling from jumping, and if you guys don't see the problem in that, then you don't understand why a LOT of jumpers are into jumping. Without skill, there are no goals and challenges and as a result there is no motivation to continue on.

[Mac-]

Could I get a link to a TAS'd demo? I have friends in the ETF2L anti-cheat team whose job is reviewing demos. If TAS is detectable, they'll find it.

[RNC1839]

Well with nolem's plugin currently if you can get the POV demo it's very obvious that a TAS was used. The viewmodels are still a bit fucky, the ammo also gets fucked with in an attempt to fix the viewmodels. It's super obvious. STV however looks completely normal.

Anyway these are my demos from my internal tas:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fxbkw76co2ym2u2/internal_tas_demos.zip?dl=0

And Nolem's demos from his panama tas:
https://mega.co.nz/#!XswgWDxI!JpvzS-3YxJLkKWwQ4iUAMCt60NPjogyF7r_-PdLJYsE

[nolem]

With my POV demos, the user commands appear to be entirely empty.  Also the clip changes to 3 before you fire when you fire with 4 rockets in the clip. I don't visually,  it looks OK but if you look carefully for either of these things you can tell. I don't know much about the STV demo file format but I would imagine it isn't perfect either, although it should look better than the POV.

[plep]

Zigzati didn't you cheat a bouncehop run and try and pass it off as legit...? Your argument is completely ridiculous knowing your history. People do have malicious intent... you're evidence of it.

I can't even believe this is even an argument. I don't care if you can do "cool" things with TAS, it does not take skill. Any mediocre jumper can create clean looking jumps/speedruns with TAS. If it's detectable, I wouldn't mind a TAS plugin being out there. My only problem is if it's undetectable.

This isn't about egos or whatever, it's about keeping the skill in jumping. TAS removes the skill ceiling from jumping, and if you guys don't see the problem in that, then you don't understand why a LOT of jumpers are into jumping. Without skill, there are no goals and challenges and as a result there is no motivation to continue on.

[879m]

Because there's already plugins for saving velocity and position isn't a TAS plugin at this point something that edits them together cleanly? aka what people already can do?

[Zigzati]

Because there's already plugins for saving velocity and position isn't a TAS plugin at this point something that edits them together cleanly? aka what people already can do?

yea dude jsave is literally the exact same thing i dont even know why melon made a tas plugin it's literally the exact same thing rofl hes such a noob