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McMaster

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probably a "Rocket Jump Revolution"   :P
<3 tempus
</3 tempus's lag

wtf srsly there's McMaster University
:0


protist ?

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It's a good thing tf2 surfing is irrelevant because this affects surfing just as much as it affects jumping.


nolem

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It's a good thing tf2 surfing is irrelevant because this affects surfing just as much as it affects jumping.

I'm pretty sure most tf2 surfing is done offline but I messaged tordana yesterday just as a heads up.


Combustion

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Now if you're all so worried about people trying to pass a tas as a non-tas, the pov demo is enough to prove if its legit or not, according to nolem's tas post. If you still don't trust it, we can always ask people to stream.

Remember Casual? I'm surprised nobody has brought this up. His Void Run, Aperture Run, Ultra Run, Skylight Run. All pov runs. He won the Aperture Run competition with a TAS run and nobody knew it was fake. Sure there were weird painmarkers in his runs sometimes, but his ultra run had no wrongly placed hit markers at all. Im not even sure if there was anything in the demo that was abnormal which could be used to tell a fake. It was only until his Skylight Run that people started to get suspicious and investigate. It was only until he posted that he had used a TAS plugin to cheat that people knew about the TAS. People can modify nolem's plugin to do exactly that. My fear is that when that happens we won't be able to tell a real run from a fake run. Even with pov demos.

Ask people to stream? My Computer is completely incapable of streaming and i find it very disheartening that i would now have to stream my gameplay which will slow down my computer significantly. Also arent u forgetting that people can just fake a gameplay by streaming a recorded gameplay and like talking over it or something.

Those people who think that cheating won't become a big problem are really naive. Look at Raiin's pagoda and aridia runs. When the pagoda run was released, me and Torii thought that was one of the best runs we had ever seen and we didn't question its authenticity because it was from Raiin. We respected him back then. Probably impressed by his own success, Raiin posted another cheated run on aridia but with more sloppy cuts that could be seen without slowing the footage down. It was then found out that the aridia run was fake and then the pagoda run was found to be fake as well. However, there are still so many people in the community that think that those runs were legit

Similarly with Casual, after posting his void run. Nobody really proved that the run was fake besides Pain Marker Expert Guyyst, but at the time nobody really felt it was a reliable way of proving it was fake.
Then he proceed with The ultra run ( no painmarker mistakes) and won the aperture contest. Honestly there were so many people in my jump community (SEA) that actually believed that the ultra run was real.

These 2 examples show that cheating is a huge problem and by releasing the TAS plugin without figuring out a good way to prevent cheaters from cheating, im pretty sure we are gonna to have these problems on a greater scale then before
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 10:36:54 AM by Combustion »


Mireal

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what combustion said
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down


nolem

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OK I just want to go through and talk about a couple things, some of which are in response to previous posts, others are just my thoughts.

As for Casual and his plugins, his plugin went undetected because it specifically does extra in order to make the demo internally seem real. My plugin does what's required to make it look visually real but I make no effort (and do not plan to) make the demo file itself look real. The painmarker problem (which I don't think is completely fixed with either plugin) is because of the source engine being somewhat non-deterministic with projectiles or some floating point error or something (we think).

Regarding the ability of people to modify my plugin - it is virtually impossible to change it. The plugin is written in C++, and while compiled .dlls are technically possible to decompile, it would take a god among gods to do anything remotely useful with something of this size. If somebody else wants to write their own plugin, that's another issue, but they won't be able to get anything usable except the general idea of how it works from what I've released.

With jump videos, assuming people still submit runs and jumps, rjweekly and other jumping channels shouldn't be too concerned. All demos recorded online are fine and POV demos are easily verifiable with the method I described in my other post. For those recording jumps offline, it's not really that big of a deal to record an extra POV if you usually just do STV. If you really are that lazy and can't type 1 extra line, install P-REC and stop complaining.

Now, of course there is more to this discussion than just "oh, its detectable, no more problems". The main thing that discouraged me from releasing in the first place is something that's been brought up here a lot - people will probably lose motivation to do runs and trickjumps and whatnot, and it's just generally demoralizing to see someone who has spent 1/10 the time you have practicing use a program to make themselves look better than you. The "it's just a game", "stop caring about efame", and "they're different categories" arguments have been brought up here a bunch but I really don't feel that they have much validity. Yes, we know who the top jumpers are and who is actually good and who isn't, but there isn't really much denying that a large part of why they spent so much time practicing and getting better is because of the competition aspect of jumping. No matter how many times you say that it's not the same category and how many times people acknowledge that it isn't, it's difficult not to see TAS videos and become somewhat demotivated. This is pretty much why I tried to keep it contained to only a few people.


I'd really like to see that people don't get out of control with the plugin. I know that there's definitely is a positive side to it's release and it'll probably do some good things for jumping and the community, but like I've said before, I can't help but be worried about what might happen if it does get out of hand. From my perspective, at this point, there isn't really much that can be done about anything, we just kinda have to wait it out, see what happens, and hope for the best.


Splash4Damage

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just for heads up, casuals plugin has been out there too since yesterday and some people already have their hands on it  ::)


plep

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just for heads up, casuals plugin has been out there too since yesterday and some people already have their hands on it  ::)

Farewell everybody


nolem

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just for heads up, casuals plugin has been out there too since yesterday and some people already have their hands on it  ::)

I'm not too sure what you're talking about, I just messaged casual and he says obs has the plugin and he helped replica with the source code. I doubt either of those two would release it.


Casual

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Offline TAS is so mainstream these days... Gotta do it online ;)


Mireal

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Offline TAS is so mainstream these days... Gotta do it online ;)
You'll make people even more paranoid !
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down


Mireal

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Offline TAS is so mainstream these days... Gotta do it online ;)
Actually couldn't you just take the jumpbot idea of replicating past inputs, record a tas run offline of a map then replicate the inputs online, I guess the timings would be off though
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down
man cannot ascend with worldly values holding him down


mrtootie

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Offline TAS is so mainstream these days... Gotta do it online ;)
Do you SMELL what the ROCK is cooking in Ohio Belgium?
Answer: It's a dank meme storm


AI

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Offline TAS is so mainstream these days... Gotta do it online ;)
Actually couldn't you just take the jumpbot idea of replicating past inputs, record a tas run offline of a map then replicate the inputs online, I guess the timings would be off though

Jumpbot is a server-side plugin. Unless the server operator hosting the race or timer is colluding with the player to cheat, this would not work.


Combustion

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On my understanding of how casual's plugin works, it seems as though online TAS would be possible which is a huge problem. Casual is a hacker that makes hacks and sells them to people. ( look at his utube channel and website Casualhacks.net) What makes you think that the plugin is safe in his hands anyway.

Even if Casual or obs doesnt release it, what makes you think that nobody is capable of reproducing a undetectable TAS plugin and making it as good or even better than casual's TAS. There are more hackers in TF2 than before because there more people making hacks. It might not even matter that yr plugin cannot be modified if someone can make one from scratch.

Right now we cant take STV demos as legit or POV demos as reliable (nolem's plugin can be detected but casual's is undetected) and if casual succeeds in making the online TAS undetectable. GG community

I really hope this doesnt happen, but we really need to find a way to prove a fake.

Besides, TAS runs makes normal runs boring. After watching Casual's ultra and skylight run, watching tusic's legit ultra run or john's legit skylight run felt empty. Like there was something lacking. The expectation of the runs for me was way too high now.
There are even people calling the baqu rotw bad despite it being one of the best runs ever because of TAS runs that are pushing expectations higher. TAS is like the porn for jumping and that is probably gonna be a bad thing.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 12:07:20 PM by Combustion »