Beginnings 4

[nolem]

I think in the future there should be more judges (I know there were some issues this year) and the median of the scores should be used for judging, not the total. Won't fix it completely but it'll help.

[Lambda]

Well well well... Im going to explain WHY my judging about demomen jumping.

Guys, your jumps were OK, but this is trickjumping, which is a jump using combinations of jump techniques, i only seen airpogos here.
I judge originality in every aspect, i gotta say originality was really poor in this competition. IF THIS WERE AN AIRPOGO COMPETITION, ID PUT 9 or 10 TO EVERYBODY, but unfortunately this is trickjumping competition.

1st- Nobody used original maps/valve maps, everybody made jumps in jump maps, and think that people in here play everyday in those maps.
2nd- Trickjumping is not just airpogo around, i already said what trickjumping is.
3rd- I DONT CARE ABOUT HOW LONG IS YOUR AIRPOGO, or if you just do 1 ullapool ss and keep airpogoing like a lot, i saw that in many jumps. I judge originality, for example, jorge sent 3 jumps, 2 of them were airpogos (see those 1 and 2), and 1 of them was original (but not that original because of the map).
I dont care if the player is annoying or hes a cool guy (nobody was annoying at me i gotta say, because i respect everybody and i have limits with people). Im judge here and i have to judge his jump, not his personality. So dont be so stupid at the time of making a comment without any knowledge about that person.

Guys, you are great jumpers, but this is beginnings, a competition where we try to find the best world jumper/trickjumper. (OR atleast that was the objetive since the 1st beginnings). So if you want to win, be creative, and do your best. And you guys werent creative and you didnt your best. I know that you can do more than a simple airpogo. I want you to go far away from an airpogo, make jumps without stickybomb launcher. Do more trimping... you can do more than an airpogo.
For the next time, think that, this is not a simple jump movie, which can impress people who dont jump or people who is starting to jump (which is good because could be an inspiration to get better). Think that this is a competition, and you have to impress judges (people who has years into this).

Also, the organization of this competition was really bad. Im still wondering HOW THE HELL THE PARTICIPANTS KNEW SCORES and run times before the videos were released. WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?... 0 organization, and also pretty immature. So guys, for the next time dont be so stupid and leave friendship at a side. I just saw the classic "IF I DONT VOTE THIS, HE WILL GET MAD AT ME" or "WHAT HE GONNA SAY IF I PUT A LOW NUMBER ON THIS JUMP / I DONT TELL HIM ANY SCORE OR TIME"... come on guys.

Well, i have nothing more to say.

I wish good luck to everyone, and please, be original, use different techniques and different maps, discover new thecniques. Not every jump depends of a stickybomb launcher.

Best regards.

Lambda.-

[fishy]

i have to agree with much of that.

someone was trying to tell me yesterday that you can't do much more than airpogo for demo trickjumping and i didn't have time to tell them how wrong that is

is it unfortunate that people were dicked out of their placing as a result of contradictory judging? yes

but it just illustrates an extremely obvious problem, if we're going to do this competition again the judges need to all get together and discuss exactly how they are going to judge. there was a clear tear in communication that led to contradictory votes across the board, except exile who still seems like he just didn't give a shit lol (speak up like lambda if otherwise)

[Dr. Heinz]

You basically only judged wheter you found it original or not. That should not have been the case.

Impressive > execution > creative/hard

(Put me on as the next judge)

[Lambda]

An airpogo doesnt impress me, its boring. A good trimping using pipes and ullapool impress me.
Trickumping is based in originality.
Thats my way to judge, everybody has different ways. Well thats mine, if you guys dont like it, i understand, but i won't change it because i feel im doing it correct, and i want you to push your limits.

[seras/roberto]

Well well well... Im going to explain WHY my judging about demomen jumping.

Guys, your jumps were OK, but this is trickjumping, which is a jump using combinations of jump techniques, i only seen airpogos here.
I judge originality in every aspect, i gotta say originality was really poor in this competition. IF THIS WERE AN AIRPOGO COMPETITION, ID PUT 9 or 10 TO EVERYBODY, but unfortunately this is trickjumping competition.

1st- Nobody used original maps/valve maps, everybody made jumps in jump maps, and think that people in here play everyday in those maps.
2nd- Trickjumping is not just airpogo around, i already said what trickjumping is.
3rd- I DONT CARE ABOUT HOW LONG IS YOUR AIRPOGO, or if you just do 1 ullapool ss and keep airpogoing like a lot, i saw that in many jumps. I judge originality, for example, jorge sent 3 jumps, 2 of them were airpogos (see those 1 and 2), and 1 of them was original (but not that original because of the map).
I dont care if the player is annoying or hes a cool guy (nobody was annoying at me i gotta say, because i respect everybody and i have limits with people). Im judge here and i have to judge his jump, not his personality. So dont be so stupid at the time of making a comment without any knowledge about that person.

Guys, you are great jumpers, but this is beginnings, a competition where we try to find the best world jumper/trickjumper. (OR atleast that was the objetive since the 1st beginnings). So if you want to win, be creative, and do your best. And you guys werent creative and you didnt your best. I know that you can do more than a simple airpogo. I want you to go far away from an airpogo, make jumps without stickybomb launcher. Do more trimping... you can do more than an airpogo.
For the next time, think that, this is not a simple jump movie, which can impress people who dont jump or people who is starting to jump (which is good because could be an inspiration to get better). Think that this is a competition, and you have to impress judges (people who has years into this).

Also, the organization of this competition was really bad. Im still wondering HOW THE HELL THE PARTICIPANTS KNEW SCORES and run times before the videos were released. WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?... 0 organization, and also pretty immature. So guys, for the next time dont be so stupid and leave friendship at a side. I just saw the classic "IF I DONT VOTE THIS, HE WILL GET MAD AT ME" or "WHAT HE GONNA SAY IF I PUT A LOW NUMBER ON THIS JUMP / I DONT TELL HIM ANY SCORE OR TIME"... come on guys.

Well, i have nothing more to say.

I wish good luck to everyone, and please, be original, use different techniques and different maps, discover new thecniques. Not every jump depends of a stickybomb launcher.

Best regards.

Lambda.-

Well this is a load of bullshit. I've seen all of mireals submissions and as I said before, one of his jumps was quite literally jorges jump but with an downpogo into vert into downpogo. You can not say that jorges jump was even close to being as original as that. Jorge even did that jump after he had seen the aforementioned jump by mireal back when jorge was supposed to be a judge. You encourage people to use a variety of weapons to make the jumps creative? Every submission from mireal did exactly this, but you score them 2s and 3s? and then you give jorge a 7 for some cannon vert into an edgebug? I don't really care what reason you give for it but you really fucked up the judging on this. There's a line to be drawn when you vote for a jump based on its creativity versus the skill required that you obviously can't seem to grasp.

2nd- Trickjumping is not just airpogo around, i already said what trickjumping is.

This is also a load of horseshit. 1. Trickjumping can be and often IS airpogoing around when it comes to demo because that is simply the nature of the class, 2. You do not define what trickjumping is. This is a skill based competition and it was blatantly obvious that the most skillful jumps were ignored in your mind just because they didn't appeal to your definition of a trickjump. Of course, as you say, originality is important, but there really is a limit to how original you can be, especially with a class like demoman.

Guys, you are great jumpers, but this is beginnings, a competition where we try to find the best world jumper/trickjumper.

I have seen all of mireals jumps he submitted. They are easily some of the best trickjumps EVER done.

Think that this is a competition, and you have to impress judges (people who has years into this).

This isn't just a competition to impress judges. This is supposed to be an objective competition that IMPARTIAL judges should be able to vote on based on experience. Yes, you have a lot of experience, maybe you were once considered the best, but don't keep yourself under the delusion that your reputation allows you to define what is and isn't a good trickjump for other people. I've spoken to a lot of people about this and it is a unanimous agreement (among those I spoke to, which is a lot of people) that the way you voted simply wasn't fair.

[Dr. Heinz]

Ty Seras. You said basically what i had in my mind.

[seras/roberto]

An airpogo doesnt impress me, its boring. A good trimping using pipes and ullapool impress me.
Trickumping is based in originality.
Thats my way to judge, everybody has different ways. Well thats mine, if you guys dont like it, i understand, but i won't change it because i feel im doing it correct, and i want you to push your limits.

"Jorges jump had an edgebug so its automatically more creative than the rest of the jumps and deserves to win. Who the fuck cares about how god damn hard some of the airpogos are that other participants did."

[minty]

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[plep]

I want to see Mireal's submissions now

[fishy]

i also have to agree with much of what seras has said

though i kinda think this is all pretty retarded and we already know exactly what to do for next year to improve

[seras/roberto]

I want to see Mireal's submissions now

Mireal tells me they are going to be on jotw pretty soon. We'll have to see.

[Melon]

alright look

if there were not clear standards for the judges to evaluate each jump on, there should have been
if beginnings even exists next year this is going to have to be REQUIRED for reasons i shouldnt even have to explain
i dont understand why the community as a whole has such difficulty understanding that to run "competitive" events with PRIZES you NEED to set some basic rules for every aspect of said event, including the decisions at the top

the categories that dr heinz listed are pretty much perfect, so it wont be too hard to develop them

in terms of scoring flaws the only real issue was with the demo solo jumps

overall this would have been a non issue if we had concrete categories to judge each jump on

[Lambda]

alright look

if there were not clear standards for the judges to evaluate each jump on, there should have been
if beginnings even exists next year this is going to have to be REQUIRED for reasons i shouldnt even have to explain
i dont understand why the community as a whole has such difficulty understanding that to run "competitive" events with PRIZES you NEED to set some basic rules for every aspect of said event, including the decisions at the top

the categories that dr heinz listed are pretty much perfect, so it wont be too hard to develop them

in terms of scoring flaws the only real issue was with the demo solo jumps

overall this would have been a non issue if we had concrete categories to judge each jump on

And please, in case there is another beginnings, make sure participants dont know about judge votes / times. All of this is happening because the bad organization, and the immature people who let participants know about our decitions. Vexon did a Mail for this but that wasn't effective.

@RBT:
Yes, i found jorge's jump better over all the other jumps... what's the big deal?
Respect my opinion, as i respect yours. I found jorge's jump better, you found mireal's jump better. We are different. And please stop pretending i did some kind of favoritism there, because it isn't true. I just did my job, which is judge jumps, not players.

[fishy]

the problem with that statement lambda is that SEVERAL people believe you were playing favorites, quotes such as "lambda thinks new jumpers all suck" come to mind (not my words, not pointing fingers either)

we're facing community discourse over something pretty stupid right now, something pretty stupid that we already know how to fix