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Point System Discussion

Starkie · 109 · 19752

Starkie

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these are all my opinion of course but i think lots of you will agree with me

  • completion gives comparable points to tts and WRs yet completion is almost never more impressive
  • WRs carry much more prestige than tts yet they dont give many more points. for example, the rush WR is worth 50 less points than #3 on diabarha, despite #3 on diabarha being +17 minutes on the WR
  • i dont see why WRing a t2 map is any less impressive than a t4 yet you get 100 less points
  • tt points ramp up really slowly with placings. for example, if you have #5 on a t3 and then get #4, you get 15 points which is half of what you get for #10. it doesnt encourage you to improve your time, it's more effective to move onto another map
  • in general WRs & tts on maps not designed for the respective class are less impressive than on the intended class, yet there is no difference in points

ideas for solutions:
  • make points for tts & WRs equal for all maps intended for that class. less on maps intended for the opposite class (maybe half? idk)
  • increase tt points significantly. (maybe 150 for #10 up to 1500 for #2?)
  • increase WR points even more significantly. i'd say double, maybe even triple the points of a #2

i feel this would encourage people to play soldier maps on soldier and demo maps on demo. it would also encourage people to improve their times rather than a "that'll do" attitude when playing for points


Mac-

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The point system has been an issue since tempus was released and not a whole lot has changed since then, so I doubt much will come of this, but I agree.

It would also encourage people to improve their times rather than a "that'll do" attitude when playing for points

Copying the idea from surf maps where the times are split into groups, each giving more points depending on which group you are in would also be nice for the newer guys. Not many people are capable of getting top times consistently on multiple maps, so having a system that rewards you for getting top 50% or 25% on a map would keep people invested from the beginning. The only issue I see is that there aren't all that many completions on the harder maps, so splitting times into groups could be a little weird.


Dr. Heinz

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MrHappyCamper

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these are all my opinion of course but i think lots of you will agree with me

You seem to be quantifying based on "impressiveness", which you should know is subjective and does not pose a consistent argument. But I do agree with most of your points.

While wr on maps like beef are epic, I don't think a demo triple pre-ing for wr on a t1 bonus should give as many points as a 2min airpogo bonus wr.

And most importantly, the completion vs tt war will never end unless they are separated. This would give us a better way to compare jumpers and would let people see who is better in the category that they care about. I'm not sure how this can be done, whether we can have a different category like for the soldier demo difference. All I care about is tracking completion and being able to compare and see the top completioners.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 04:24:12 PM by MrHappyCamper »


VAVLIE

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I'm not sure about the more soldier points for soldier map thing (what about maps made for both or neither classes?) but I agree with everything else. I also like what Mac is describing. Top ten cutoff is pretty brutal especially with the number of good runs on a map always increasing.



Ladyboog

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ksf system tbh, please someone tell me why we can't use something similar to that


Zike

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inflate points so someone will buy the fox tail i'm selling for 1,000,000 tempus points


Starkie

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ksf system tbh, please someone tell me why we can't use something similar to that
its a lot of dev work i'd assume


Gorge004

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Tomsinister made a formula a long time ago for intergalactic plugin, idk if thats ever going to be a thing and if they want to share that formula, but AFAIK it was calculating points based mostly on your time vs wr and without (?) any based completion point. So someone who is 2nd but 1sec off wr on a map would get more points then someone 2nd but +2min. The amount of points was also based off the tier of the map, so someone 1 sec off a t6 wr was getting a lot more points than someone 1 sec off a t1 wr.

Im not sure exactly how it worked, but something similar to that i think is a very good idea. People just completing maps would get points but way less than the current system, so there's an incentive to actually improve your time rather than sitting on your completion points without rerunning anything.


879m

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Tomsinister made a formula a long time ago for intergalactic plugin, idk if thats ever going to be a thing and if they want to share that formula, but AFAIK it was calculating points based mostly on your time vs wr and without (?) any based completion point. So someone who is 2nd but 1sec off wr on a map would get more points then someone 2nd but +2min. The amount of points was also based off the tier of the map, so someone 1 sec off a t6 wr was getting a lot more points than someone 1 sec off a t1 wr.

Im not sure exactly how it worked, but something similar to that i think is a very good idea. People just completing maps would get points but way less than the current system, so there's an incentive to actually improve your time rather than sitting on your completion points without rerunning anything.

yes i want something like this. what would be even better is an incentive to improve your wr as well, since the majority of tempus wrs aren't good runs imo. it would help with the amount some maps are played too, since there would be a point to improving your meme map wr outside of meme value. it could be calculated by giving you the points lost by 2nd/3rd/4th... due to them being further away from wr. might even get some rotws on niche maps out of it


Scorch

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If you don't expect to be able to tt, there's more incentive to try new maps than improving your times


Mario

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What about also separating maps for the intended class from those intended for the other? Ie tagging each map with a S/D/Both tag ("Both" maps would be included in both categories).

Personally (and I know many people agree), I generally don't find demo maps as soldier fun, but do a lot of them anyway for points since they give more than "bad" tts which can be knocked off the top ten - especially now with the rank restricted servers. Imo playing demo maps as soldier (and vice versa) should be more of an extra that you can do if you want (although they should still have their own leaderboard).

Reasons I don't like demo maps:
  • Annoying, buggy walls (even when they are straight..)
  • Wallpogo on shitty glass / fence / invisible textures
  • Hole jumps
  • Random bounces
  • (Wall)pogoing around trying to find the end of a jump
  • Often not knowing what is shootable
  • Lack of variety of jumps (i.e. mostly wallpogo)
  • Maps that have had jumps changed so they can be done, resulting in a weird skillcurve
  • Generally long runs due to all of the above
  • Even worse bonuses

I only play soldier, but demo players often complain about soldier maps being almost solely triple-pre too so I think this is beneficial for both classes.

I prefer spending time getting better runs on solly maps, but its annoying to not be rewarded at all for improving as I rarely get top ten times and am usually more in the #10-50 zone. Both the Mac /TomSinister models would be huge improvements in this regard.

All these changes would obviously be a lot of work, but I think there a lot of players with CS backgrounds (including myself) so finding an extra developer or two might not be that hard?



Superchuck

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Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The problem with separating demo maps from soldier maps are the ones in the middle, such as lanc for soldier, where it is a demo map but also possible as soldier. Would it be left off because it's a demo map, or be considered a soldier map since there is no real wallpogo.

I do agree with the idea of separating maps though. Maps such as mireal(s), and other airpogo maps that are only wallpogo for soldier should not be counted.
The Rat Master


Mario

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Quote
The problem with separating demo maps from soldier maps are the ones in the middle, such as lanc for soldier, where it is a demo map but also possible as soldier. Would it be left off because it's a demo map, or be considered a soldier map since there is no real wallpogo.

I like lanc as soldier, but its a demo map and so would be left out.
I get what you're saying though, as some effort was put into the map to make it possible as solly. But then you have stuff like vanished which falls under the same category - except its awful for soldier (though technically easier).

The only maps that would be counted for both rankings are maps like bonus.