Point System Discussion

[WingsWithoutBird]

I pretty much agree with everything said above except killing demo maps as solly (or kill wallpogo pretty much).

Why is wallpogo even a problem?
It's a solly technique like many others.

Usually demo maps as solly are full wallpogo and people find it boring (you also have jump_sync, only syncs; jump_bounce and jump_bouncerific, only bounces; jump_edgebug, only edgebugs [if did intended]), ok I get it, but I don't find them boring at all and I actually enjoy them (as many other players), and as you try to go faster you start doing wallshots instead.

Basically you wan't to kill wallpogo because you don't like it.

On the other demo maps that aren't full wallpogo, sometimes you even need to do uncommon techinques (uncommon on solly maps)  in order to complete the map (or go faster) like angle bhops, random bhops, wallbugs, edgebugs, weird strafes, or all of them in the same jump and that's challenging and sometimes hard.

And if it's hard why should it be less valuable?

That's why I think that if tt's and wr's were (way) more valuable, wallpogo or demo maps as solly wouldn't be a problem, since completion points wouldn't matter (or as much) which is one of the main points here.

Anyways, just my thoughts
#savewallpogo

[tyjle]

but wallpogo hella gay tho

[MrHappyCamper]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I pretty much agree with everything said above except killing demo maps as solly (or kill wallpogo pretty much).

Why is wallpogo even a problem?
It's a solly technique like many others.

Usually demo maps as solly are full wallpogo and people find it boring (you also have jump_sync, only syncs; jump_bounce and jump_bouncerific, only bounces; jump_edgebug, only edgebugs [if did intended]), ok I get it, but I don't find them boring at all and I actually enjoy them (as many other players), and as you try to go faster you start doing wallshots instead.

Basically you wan't to kill wallpogo because you don't like it.

On the other demo maps that aren't full wallpogo, sometimes you even need to do uncommon techinques (uncommon on solly maps)  in order to complete the map (or go faster) like angle bhops, random bhops, wallbugs, edgebugs, weird strafes, or all of them in the same jump and that's challenging and sometimes hard.

And if it's hard why should it be less valuable?

That's why I think that if tt's and wr's were (way) more valuable, wallpogo or demo maps as solly wouldn't be a problem, since completion points wouldn't matter (or as much) which is one of the main points here.

Anyways, just my thoughts
#savewallpogo

Very well said and I agree, thank you for existing.

[newjuls]

death to wallpogo mains

[Boshy]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I pretty much agree with everything said above except killing demo maps as solly (or kill wallpogo pretty much).

Why is wallpogo even a problem?
It's a solly technique like many others.

Usually demo maps as solly are full wallpogo and people find it boring (you also have jump_sync, only syncs; jump_bounce and jump_bouncerific, only bounces; jump_edgebug, only edgebugs [if did intended]), ok I get it, but I don't find them boring at all and I actually enjoy them (as many other players), and as you try to go faster you start doing wallshots instead.

Basically you wan't to kill wallpogo because you don't like it.

On the other demo maps that aren't full wallpogo, sometimes you even need to do uncommon techinques (uncommon on solly maps)  in order to complete the map (or go faster) like angle bhops, random bhops, wallbugs, edgebugs, weird strafes, or all of them in the same jump and that's challenging and sometimes hard.

And if it's hard why should it be less valuable?

That's why I think that if tt's and wr's were (way) more valuable, wallpogo or demo maps as solly wouldn't be a problem, since completion points wouldn't matter (or as much) which is one of the main points here.

Anyways, just my thoughts
#savewallpogo

The issue is that people with soldier map tts/wrs lose to wallpogo mains


Rank 10 vs rank 11




Mostly wallpogo times

[Starkie]

I pretty much agree with everything said above except killing demo maps as solly (or kill wallpogo pretty much).

Why is wallpogo even a problem?
It's a solly technique like many others.

Usually demo maps as solly are full wallpogo and people find it boring (you also have jump_sync, only syncs; jump_bounce and jump_bouncerific, only bounces; jump_edgebug, only edgebugs [if did intended]), ok I get it, but I don't find them boring at all and I actually enjoy them (as many other players), and as you try to go faster you start doing wallshots instead.

Basically you wan't to kill wallpogo because you don't like it.

On the other demo maps that aren't full wallpogo, sometimes you even need to do uncommon techinques (uncommon on solly maps)  in order to complete the map (or go faster) like angle bhops, random bhops, wallbugs, edgebugs, weird strafes, or all of them in the same jump and that's challenging and sometimes hard.

And if it's hard why should it be less valuable?

That's why I think that if tt's and wr's were (way) more valuable, wallpogo or demo maps as solly wouldn't be a problem, since completion points wouldn't matter (or as much) which is one of the main points here.

Anyways, just my thoughts
#savewallpogo

people don't like wallpogo so they don't run it. this means wallpogo tt's are laughably bad. also if you use the original it becomes even easier
it's not that i dislike wallpogo, i think it's kinda cool to get good times on the intended hard wallpogo maps. but i think it says it all when you say "And if it's hard why should it be less valuable?" yet you havent even done the easiest intended wallpogo maps with the easier gun

[WingsWithoutBird]

I see, but wouldn't this be solved if wrs and tt's were way more valuable?
I mean gato has way more tts and wrs than ymir, so gato would be ahead even with the huge completion of ymir.
and yes, most of the wallpogo tts are bad and yes because no one runs it, I actually liked the system that gives you more points if you are closer to the wr (I dont quite remember who suggested it).
That system would also solve the wallpogo problem without killing it.
ty

[Sere]

What about maps like jump_depleted or jump_synth that were specifically designed for multiple classes at the same time?

There are other maps as well, such as jump_embrace, that were made for one class(demo), but were also made in such a way as to have a decent skill curve for the other class.

[VAVLIE]

you also have jump_sync, only syncs; jump_bounce and jump_bouncerific, only bounces; jump_edgebug, only edgebugs [if did intended],

I don't like this argument for mainly two reasons:

• The numbers just don't match and are actually pretty silly when you look at them: there's only a handful of maps revolving only around syncs, 3-4 maps about only bounces/bhops, and edgebug is a one of a kind thing. On the other hand, we're talking about 80-90 wallpogo maps.
• The maps you use as examples make you do so many different things out of that one concept, while in the case of most wallpogo maps, if you can turn corners and do singlewall downpogo you're good to go for completion.

[WingsWithoutBird]

we go back to the same thing then, completion is the problem, not wallpogo

[MrHappyCamper]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

you also have jump_sync, only syncs; jump_bounce and jump_bouncerific, only bounces; jump_edgebug, only edgebugs [if did intended],

I don't like this argument for mainly two reasons:

• The numbers just don't match and are actually pretty silly when you look at them: there's only a handful of maps revolving only around syncs, 3-4 maps about only bounces/bhops, and edgebug is a one of a kind thing. On the other hand, we're talking about 80-90 wallpogo maps.
• The maps you use as examples make you do so many different things out of that one concept, while in the case of most wallpogo maps, if you can turn corners and do singlewall downpogo you're good to go for completion.

You're generalizing maps that use wallpogo as wallpogo maps, yet not doing quite the same generalization to syncs (and other techniques), how many maps can you think of that have a vanilla quad/quint? How many include syncs in most of their jumps? I understand that the maps you refer to use wallpogo for most of their jumps, but I think people are quick to generalize maps they don't want to be mainstream as gimmick maps.

That aside I agree that wallpogo is an overused technique for soldier in demo maps (much like sync and ss in soldier maps, but hey that's just my opinion man), but I think it is useful to understand why wallpogo is used so much. Wallpogo happens to be the most general way to get from point A to point B regardless of obstacles and is often the only way, demo maps aren't designed with a specific strategy for soldier and so wallpogo just naturally comes out as the best way to do it. I do not think of this as much of an issue since I place the ability of 'getting from point A to point B' as more fundamental to jumping than being able to do 'a quint sync speedshot to edgeshot jumpbug' or any random trick you think of, and wallpogo is an essential skill for the former.

As for the people saying that "using original makes wallpogo easy", I say that is naive for thinking stock and original should be fair or equal. People use original when they want to improve in wallpogo, professionals will use professional equipment, just use the specific aspects of the rl you chose to your advantage.

[Mario]

If demo maps aren't separated (e.g another category) from solly maps, then I think the problem will get even worse with the tt changes (since demo map tts will also give more and they account for 40-50% ? of maps).

[Starkie]

What about maps like jump_depleted or jump_synth that were specifically designed for multiple classes at the same time?

There are other maps as well, such as jump_embrace, that were made for one class(demo), but were also made in such a way as to have a decent skill curve for the other class.

there are a few exceptions that were designed for both classes in mind like depleted and duality, that i imagine would give the points to both

[valix]

Of course you're defending demo maps wingswithoutbirds, they're literally all of you're tt's and t6 completion. 95% of wallpogo is boring, because nearly every "wallpogo map" is just demo maps, there's only a handful of actual wallpogo maps, designed to be wallpogo maps, just like theres only a handful of pure sync maps or pure bounce maps, which is fine imo. Maps like wallfox or attached1/2 are fine imo, they're a bit niche and most people wont like them, but they have their place just like sync or bouncerific does. The problem with wallpogo is demo maps shouldnt give the same points as soldier maps. tt's on demo maps are laughably easy to get, and shouldn't give even close to the same points as real tts.

>And if it's hard why should it be less valuable?

Its not hard, its boring. People dont run demo maps because they're painfully boring, simpe as that.

>That's why I think that if tt's and wr's were (way) more valuable, wallpogo or demo maps as solly wouldn't be a problem, since completion points wouldn't matter (or as much) which is one of the main points here.

Except that demo maps are very easy to tt, should someone with only tt's on demo maps (such as yourself) be able to skate by without actually being able to beat hard maps or tt real maps?


also idk how to format this so sorry.

[Larry]

I feel like people are misunderstanding how the maps will be divided and the motivation behind doing so.
We're not dividing maps into wallpogo and non-wallpogo maps. They will be divided into Soldier and Demo maps with some exceptions such as duality that are for both classes. We're not directly targeting wallpogo as a mechanic to make it give less points, we're making it so maps intended for demo give soldier less points. Most demo maps just happen to have wallpogo, this is down to the mapper and not a fault of the points system. There will still be soldier wallpogo maps like squared that give you full soldier points.