Point System Discussion

[CyanBoterham]

It doesn't seem right to me that you would get 99% of the WR points for getting very close to it either. Seems like that would also make people less inclined to actually try and break WRs once they get a good time. Imo a somewhat linear rewards system for top times would be the best way to go about it.

[reero]

I wanna bump this and re-open this discussion. I am aware that some of the arguments made in this thread are a bit outdated but the general premise still holds true.
With active development returning to tempus I think we should take another look at re-tiering stuff, buffing tt and wr points and nerfing triplepre/wallpogo.

Personally I think all tts/wrs should be worth the same amt of pts, because in demos case as of now there are a bajillion airpogo maps that all play the same and u just get massive pts for tting or wring them and get less pts for tting and wring t1-5 maps, which are arguably just as hard or harder to do.

I think the re-tiering of maps is technically already done but I also think that the community should have more input than it currently does. As far as I know this was done in 2018 by a small group of people, and I think we need to have that discussion also.

edit: I should also probably state that I also bumped this with the hope that tempus devs/admins show us what they have so far, I think its only fair to the community to keep us in the know.

[879m]

Equal points for every wr and tt is interesting. It would be a nice incentive to just run maps you like or are good at, and would get a lot more activity on maps with trash times. Maybe something could be done to give more points on highly contested maps.

Completion points should stay higher for harder maps though.

[Elandi!!]

"Completion points should stay higher for harder maps though."
Agreed, I also want offclass maps to just give no points, but most people probably don't want that with all the time already invested into them.

[Waldo]

Basically everyone agrees that maps with more competition should be worth more to wr/tt, it's just that that's hard to quantify. Nerfing offclass times is just a somewhat accurate heuristic that can be applied without much subjectivity; I don't think anyone actually thinks that mapper-intended class is the proxy for a map being good to run.

For example, soldier times on haze are at least as competitive as demo times, and demo times are more competitive on deserted. Overall though, most offclass runs are much less grinded since not many good players want to run triplepre/wallpogo. In most cases, nerfing offclass is fine at least outside of top 3ish.

A solution that captures this would require substantial work to determine how much each map should be worth (not to mention courses+bonuses), especially since it would be prudent to do it by some kind of ballot process instead of just having admins decide. That's a lot of work, and a moderate offclass tax is better than the current state.

[Gorge004]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/375752229589876749/554471361326612480/6dc1180d4c5cd29acd43e07e1bafaf07.png

shoutout to tim

Time0 is wr, Time is your own time.

It calculates points based off the difference between your time and wr tiem and total number of completion.

This is the result of the formula for the top 50 in beef, hanami, gateway, apex, pdidey for soldier:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/604424421041766426/760984701786914846/points_formula.xlsx

The idea is to have wr points be worth more if theres more competition. Then, the points after that are based on your time difference from wr.

Seems pretty good to me...its a good start at least unless theres already something in the work.

[osplo]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/375752229589876749/554471361326612480/6dc1180d4c5cd29acd43e07e1bafaf07.png

shoutout to tim

Time0 is wr, Time is your own time.

It calculates points based off the difference between your time and wr tiem and total number of completion.

This is the result of the formula for the top 50 in beef, hanami, gateway, apex, pdidey for soldier:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/604424421041766426/760984701786914846/points_formula.xlsx

The idea is to have wr points be worth more if theres more competition. Then, the points after that are based on your time difference from wr.

Seems pretty good to me...its a good start at least unless theres already something in the work.

I like the idea of points being based off time difference, but wow #2 on hanami being less than #50 or even #60 on beef is a huge hit to t6+ maps

[hex]

I like the idea of points being based off time difference, but wow #2 on hanami being less than #50 or even #60 on beef is a huge hit to t6+ maps

you could adjust weight of maps with very few completions in the formula but also dont forget completion points still exist independently of these points (i assume at least) so youre not getting completely owned

[Boshy]

I feel like any type of complicated formula runs into issues eventually. It's also hard to define "competitive" maps, something like beef gives you a lot of points for being in top 50 but getting top 50 on beef would take you one run if you are decent at jumping which isnt competitive at all (although maybe the hunt for points would increase competitiveness? seems unlikely to me though). Tier 6 maps get owned pretty heavily cause of lack of completion but some of them have quite a bit of competition. Then there is also the whole issue with maps where top 2 times are somewhat close but wr or 2nd arent any good at all, but then #3 to #10 are just awful, 1st and 2nd still get rewarded heaps (think of something like notele maps) for no real reason. I dont have a good solution or a better offer though, just bringing up some stuff that might be problematic.

[Gorge004]

I like the idea of points being based off time difference, but wow #2 on hanami being less than #50 or even #60 on beef is a huge hit to t6+ maps

you could adjust weight of maps with very few completions in the formula but also dont forget completion points still exist independently of these points (i assume at least) so youre not getting completely owned

theres no completion points added to that. I dont see the point of having completion points with this formula since you get points no matter what...your completion points are just worth nothing if you spend 50h on a map.

Also boshy, the idea is that improving your own time without ranking up will still gives you some points. so on maps with very good 1 and 2, #3 still have an incentive to improve even if he doesnt beat #2.

I guess the problems are on the extreme, beef having so many completion giving lots of points for everyone, and hanami having barely any completion making the points very bad. And any new t6 coming out would be very rough to run when theres no completion lol..

I copy pasted the formula that came up a while ago for intergalactic, I can look at the graphic and modify the curve to get a better zero value.

[reero]

(although maybe the hunt for points would increase competitiveness? seems unlikely to me though).

If song and cander grind bonuses all day for points I'm sure that top50 times would start to become tighter as ppl would grind those maps for points.

[Boshy]

(although maybe the hunt for points would increase competitiveness? seems unlikely to me though).

If song and cander grind bonuses all day for points I'm sure that top50 times would start to become tighter as ppl would grind those maps for points.

I really doubt they do it for points considering both of them are more than capable of breaking wrs or getting tts which is way more efficient. The reason I think its unlikely that top 50 times for beef would get competitive is because there are a bunch of maps on tempus right now where #2 or #3 are +30 or more and people dont hunt for those. It only really happens when there is a new upcoming player grinding for points but even then they dont get a good 2nd or 3rd and just get whatever time for that juicy #2 or #3 placement which would probably stay the same regardless of the system. So with this you just make beef top 50 worth more than 2nd on hanami for no real reason.

[reero]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/375752229589876749/554471361326612480/6dc1180d4c5cd29acd43e07e1bafaf07.png

shoutout to tim

Time0 is wr, Time is your own time.

It calculates points based off the difference between your time and wr tiem and total number of completion.

This is the result of the formula for the top 50 in beef, hanami, gateway, apex, pdidey for soldier:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/604424421041766426/760984701786914846/points_formula.xlsx

The idea is to have wr points be worth more if theres more competition. Then, the points after that are based on your time difference from wr.

Seems pretty good to me...its a good start at least unless theres already something in the work.

I like the idea of points being based off time difference, but wow #2 on hanami being less than #50 or even #60 on beef is a huge hit to t6+ maps

maybe instead of t0 - ur time it could be something like the inverse of (your time - avg of times below ur rank)

[gibus]

harder maps will naturally have less completions solely due to difficulty, and not because they aren't competitive at the highest level, so at the very least you should scale points based on map difficulty too

completion points shouldn't exist

like boshy mentioned, some maps will definitely be outliers; the top 20 times on beef are really poor but the map has a billion completions cause all the noobs wanna play it. so perhaps some per-map adjusting is required for maps like beef and jurf, or maybe it would be better to use some other metric like only considering times by people above a certain rank, idk

any statisticians here?

[Shunix]

the problem with hanami being worth less due to having less completions could be fixed by, perhaps having higher ranked players be more weighted in terms of how much they contribute to the number of completions part of the formula, for example a boshy completion could be worth 1000 completions.... not sure if this would work tho im stupid lol!!!!

but i like what im hearing here keep up the good work gang