Unintended class runs

[scotch]

Wanted to make this thread to discuss how points are handled for runs on unintended maps, meaning maps that are not made for that class.

I think a lot of people haven't had the chance to voice their opinion, so feel free to here.

The main thoughts behind this are to reduce the amount of points for unintended class runs.
This could be implemented in a few ways:

• all soldier maps give less points for demo and vice versa
• we selectively choose which soldier maps give less for demo and vice versa
• the community chooses which soldier maps give less for demo and vice versa

Reasons for this generally fall under the lines of the runs are less impressive, competitive and valued and the maps are generally geared towards a specific technique, making learning only that technique an easy way to grind points.

Post your suggestions or thoughts and vote on the poll.

[Syro]

While I do believe that unintended class runs need to be nerfed, I don't think that doing it for every map would be fair. In my opinion it's best for either the community or those who run Tempus to decide. While I don't think that it's the most feasible, allowing the community to vote would likely be best. However, I don't think that we as a community would be willing to evaluate every map and make a decision. Perhaps if there was a streamlined system for it, then it might work. Although, as it stands with the forums at least, I don't think that it'll happen. It'd probably be best just to leave it up to those running Tempus.

To expand on why I don't think it'd be fair, consider jump_lanc. For soldier, it's not crazy, and it's really more of a technical map that could have honestly been intended for soldier. Lanc doesn't have random bhops, and isn't just wallpogo for 20 minutes in a straight line. In contrast, maps like jump_storm are just endless wallpogo, so there's nothing interesting about the map. The majority of people only play maps like these to gain points, not to have fun jumping. It's just another map in the endless, unenthusiastic drudge of getting decent completion. Maps like Storm, that only exist for points, are what need to be nerfed.

In the case of soldier:
While you could argue that you in particular think that wallpogo is really fun, and thus demo wallpogo maps shouldn't be nerfed, I think that looking at it that way is selfish and inconsiderate of what other people want. It seems like most people don't like wallpogo, so why make them spend hours grinding maps that they don't even enjoy? Try to say that nerfing demo maps will "kill" wallpogo, but it won't even do that. All that you'd be fighting against by supporting that idea is that jumping and competing on Tempus should be fun.

[Zike]

I think you should just let the members of Big Tempus™ decide. It's more or less worked in the past and if enough people complain about a decision then just change it. There are definitely maps though that even though they're for soldier should still get full points for demo. As long as it's not just triple pre garbage or singles and doubles I think it'd be fine to keep full points on that map. Also, when actually deciding this stuff I think it should be demo mains actually making the decision for what gets full demo points and soldier mains actually making the decision for what gets full soldier points. Like I wouldn't really give any value to my opinion if a demo map is fun or interesting for soldier. Same for [insert soldier main here] giving his opinion on a soldier map being fun or interesting for demo.

[newjuls]

down with vice

[plep]

Does it really change anything?

Also I believe it should be up to the mapper (if he intended strats for both classes in his map) and tempus staff to say which maps to nerf points on.

[MrHappyCamper]

I think of doing an off-class map as essentially a bonus on your way to becoming a better jumper/speedrunner, so it should give less points. The only cases in which an off-class map shouldn't give less points is when the mapper has deliberately created a separate route for the off-class (maps like duality and elite) or if the map's intended class is very ambiguous (maps like freezeflame). If a map is to be given full off-class points it should be judged with same degree of scrutiny as normal maps; so that a mapper cannot simply add enough catapults, remove enough teles, or make enough adjustments for a half-assed off-class route and cash in on having full points for each class. Letting people vote on what maps get full off-class points will just lead to people voting for the maps they like or have invested in, the off-class part of the map should be treated as a separate map and thus the same people that accept maps into tempus should decide.

[Boshy]

delete wallpogo

[MrHappyCamper]

It seems like most people don't like wallpogo, so why make them spend hours grinding maps that they don't even enjoy?
All that you'd be fighting against by supporting that idea is that jumping and competing on Tempus should be fun.

It's amazing how you twist reality to make it seem like people who like wallpogo are attacking everyone else when they don't want the maps they like to be rejected simply because it's wallpogo. Everyone wants the maps they like to be mainstream and I'm all for reducing off-class points because that's never how those maps were meant to be played. Don't act like a victim, especially in light of the naught situation.

[Syro]

It's amazing how you twist reality to make it seem like wallpogo mains are attacking everyone else when they don't want the maps they like to be rejected simply because it's wallpogo. Everyone wants the maps they like to be mainstream and I'm all for reducing off-class points because that's never how those maps were meant to be played. Don't act like a victim, especially in light of the naught situation.

I understand what you're saying, and I think that you misinterpreted what I said a bit. Although, that was really my fault since I didn't explain myself well enough. I referenced Storm because it's boring. There's nothing interesting about it since it's predominantly really long 1-wall, which is why I referenced it, not because it's wallpogo. I firmly believe that wallpogo maps have a place in jump, and I like them, and did not and will not antagonize them. My issue is demo maps that end up existing purely for points in regards to soldier, not wallpogo maps. This could mean maps like Egyptian, which have random bhops (of which I could never imagine calling fun), so not just wallpogo maps. I referenced wallpogo because it's obviously the most common issue with demo maps as soldier, since they're typically long, boring, and the result of a lack of care or complete disregard for soldier. All that uninteresting jumps really do for the majority of soldier jumpers is create an environment that isn't fun.

[Hellbent]

solly
I know quite a lot of people, mostly comp players, that dont get into jump because of wallpogo. It is just a really boring technique to learn. It is not that bad though, it is just because it is the main way to get points as soldier since tts on other maps are quite difficult to get.

I agree with everything people have said here except for a bit of what camper said. Notele and catapult maps can make interesting speedruns. I don't think jump_starkie is particularlly enjoyable, but watching larry on dreamier and kidder on hana is quite interesting to me. Maybe I am just bias tho :x

demo
From hearing those new to jump, triple pre seems like a much more interesting mechanic than soldier wallpogo. Although it can get quite monotonous when u actually play. It pretty much parallels soldier wallpogo except for those that are not really into jump I find. Not sure if that means anything.

---
Pretty much has to happen on a case by case basis. I doubt the community is going to go through every one of the maps and make a vote, so tempus nerds should do that initially. If any problems come up then maybe have a community vote or something.

[MrHappyCamper]

I understand what you're saying, and I think that you misinterpreted what I said a bit.

Thank you for clarifying, I'm sorry for attacking you so harshly.

[Shunix]

just nerf every off class map unless the mapper specifically says they intended the map to be for both classes


also no flame but the term "wallpogo main" is the most cringe thing ive heard all year

[kucino]

wallpogo is cringe

[Starkie]

what it really comes down to for me is if people care about a certain map WR
there are very few soldier map demo WRs that anyone gives a shit about so they should reward less points imo
the same applies for demo maps on soldier too but boshy has them all so its whatever

[879m]

it comes down to the substance of the map for each class.
take jump_panama, its a nice soldier map with a bunch of speedrun strats and ways to chain jumps, but for demo its essentially jump_triplepre. it has plenty of substance for soldier but little for demo. this should be a case where the offclass gets less points.
then take jump_rush_h, its fine for soldier, but for demo its a pretty fun map to run. there is substance for both classes, so this should be a case where both classes get the same points.

as for deciding when to nerf a class, leave it up to tempus nerds. they know whats up