Unintended class runs

[scotch]

To clarify, it would be tts and wrs that would be reduced, not completion.

[porkie]

wallpogo appears to be like marmite because so many people hate it, but some (me) love it. this isnt just because i use the original, i ran loads of demo maps as soldier with stock before I made the switch. IMO you cant blanket remove or de-value points for all demo maps run as soldier as some are really fun to do and actually have competition on them. for example when jump_lithium came out the other day, I really enjoyed running it and trying to get a competitive time- moreso than i enjoyed running serenity! there are plenty of older demo maps that are fun as soldier, koi, isak and termywermy come to mind for me.

you cant just shit all over a skill in tf2 jump just because some people who cant be bothered to 'get good' at it dont like it. imagine we all came out saying that any map that heavily relies on speedshots (like finite) was bullshit and a niche skill that shouldnt be heavily rewarded; that would be dumb as hell.

tl;dr i think just keep it the same, some of boshy's (and others) runs on demo maps are insane and should be praised and not ignored and shunned.
if tempus points are like crack cocaine to you then you better get good at all aspects of speedrunning, including triple pres and wallpogo, stop being babies.

[Syphilis]

But maps like mireal3, storm etc. are just boring garbage and forcing people to run them cause they want points is just mean.

[MrHappyCamper]

But maps like mireal3, storm etc. are just boring garbage and forcing people to run them cause they want points is just mean.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything, don't act like a victim and own up to the fact that you don't like it so you want it gone. I enjoy maps like jump_mireal3 and think endurance and the ability to go long distances quickly with ease is valuable. I certainly found that playing it developed my skills more than playing something like aigis, a timing memorization map.

[Zike]

hello what is this thread i request a delete tyvm triple pres r the best.. . . . . ....

[maxxy]

But maps like mireal3, storm etc. are just boring garbage and forcing people to run them cause they want points is just mean.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything, don't act like a victim and own up to the fact that you don't like it so you want it gone. I enjoy maps like jump_mireal3 and think endurance and the ability to go long distances quickly with ease is valuable. I certainly found that playing it developed my skills more than playing something like aigis, a timing memorization map.

Cause wallpogo isn't about memorizing the way to go at all for most maps, right?

[MrHappyCamper]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But maps like mireal3, storm etc. are just boring garbage and forcing people to run them cause they want points is just mean.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything, don't act like a victim and own up to the fact that you don't like it so you want it gone. I enjoy maps like jump_mireal3 and think endurance and the ability to go long distances quickly with ease is valuable. I certainly found that playing it developed my skills more than playing something like aigis, a timing memorization map.

Cause wallpogo isn't about memorizing the way to go at all for most maps, right?

The way to go? like the path? If you can't do that with minimal effort I don't know what to tell you.
But I'm going to assume you meant memorizing the technique and applying it over and over again, which is a pretty good argument. Most all skills are developed from memorization, whether that be muscle memory or some sort of thought process memory. What I was referencing in my post was "timing memorization" which for aigis is memorizing the amount of time to wait for your sync rockets. Knowing the wait time for those jumps only helps you with those specific jumps, although it isn't totally useless since it also helps you learn to memorize new sync timings faster. If you learn basic wallpogo you can apply it to a lot of places, but if you don't learn faster techniques then of course your going to be applying the same thing over and over again and you will be punishing yourself by not trying to go faster. And even if you are applying the same thing over and over again, that's just called practice and its making you more consistent and giving you higher endurance. I mean that's just what speedrunners do, the same thing over and over to become more consistent and faster. Mireal3 was like a breakthrough for me for doing fast downpogo and I strongly think I wouldn't be at my current skill level without it. I still want off-class maps to give less points, but I don't take kindly to people trash talking wallpogo.

[Hellbent]

To clarify, it would be tts and wrs that would be reduced, not completion.

thought it was completion too. Completion should be nerfed as well imo
and what about group points (assuming thats in the new system)? are those nerfed as well?

perhaps group points will be enough incentive for people to rank up without having to complete monotonous wallpogo maps but idk. Not 100% on what the new system entails, but i feel that if completion isnt nerfed jumping is going to be the same for the majority of ppl, ie wallpogo to baron.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But maps like mireal3, storm etc. are just boring garbage and forcing people to run them cause they want points is just mean.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything, don't act like a victim and own up to the fact that you don't like it so you want it gone. I enjoy maps like jump_mireal3 and think endurance and the ability to go long distances quickly with ease is valuable. I certainly found that playing it developed my skills more than playing something like aigis, a timing memorization map.

Cause wallpogo isn't about memorizing the way to go at all for most maps, right?

The way to go? like the path? If you can't do that with minimal effort I don't know what to tell you.

It is difficult to look anywhere but the wall while wallpogoing, thus you cant see where you are going. I personally remember wallpogoing for 10 minutes on some mireal bonus and going past the ending without knowing. It's not so bad on attatched for instance since it's more clear, but demo maps can be very unclear about where exactly to go. These maps are hell on earth

[Mario]

Agree with Hellbent - nerf completion AND tts for demo maps UNLESS there is an intended path for soldier (e.g lost and hardware).

There's just so much garbage on most other demo maps that I can't understand how anyone is defending it. Straight walls that wallbug every 5 seconds, pogo on invis walls / brushes that don't match the where the wall appears to be (shiver, titan etc).

All you people that keep saying that this is unfair to wallpogo etc clearly haven't read the replies in the other threads - the good wallpogo maps like attached are not being nerfed at all, meaning it will be a niche skill as it should be and not account for 50% of the maps.

I think people have forgotten tempus has its name for a reason - its for speedrunning, not grinding shitty maps. The ranking system should reflect this.

[MrHappyCamper]

Agree with Hellbent - nerf completion AND tts for demo maps UNLESS there is an intended path for soldier (e.g lost and hardware).

I also agree with this, just have all points for the maps reduced like for a bonus.

There's just so much garbage on most other demo maps that I can't understand how anyone is defending it. Straight walls that wallbug every 5 seconds, pogo on invis walls / brushes that don't match the where the wall appears to be (shiver, titan etc).

I find that stuff fun mostly because I've become bored of regular jump maps, they are unique challenges that can also help me to become more patient.

All you people that keep saying that this is unfair to wallpogo etc clearly haven't read the replies in the other threads - the good wallpogo maps like attached are not being nerfed at all, meaning it will be a niche skill as it should be and not account for 50% of the maps.

I do not speak for all people but I think you might be targeting me with this as well. And I say I have no complaints about this change and its effect on wallpogo, but what I do not support is that a lot of people want to reduce off-class points because of their dislike for wallpogo and not because of a desire to have a fair system where off-classes cannot gain many points doing maps that weren't intended for them.

I also do not blame you for making the 50% estimate, but it made me curious to see how things actually are. So I went into the jump map list and calculated how many demo maps there are and how many soldier maps there are, of course the map list contains more and worse maps than tempus, but there are 369 soldier maps and 172 demo maps. Demo maps are 32% of all maps, and I'll make a generous estimate that 70% of those are wallpogo-heavy with 30% being more like bounce maps or other. And Ill add in a few percent for the soldier-intended wallpogo maps that gives us around 25%.

[maxxy]

there are 369 soldier maps and 172 demo maps.

idk how you end up with 541 maps on tempus altho there are 443 but ok

[Syro]

I also do not blame you for making the 50% estimate, but it made me curious to see how things actually are. So I went into the jump map list and calculated how many demo maps there are and how many soldier maps there are, of course the map list contains more and worse maps than tempus, but there are 369 soldier maps and 172 demo maps. Demo maps are 32% of all maps, and I'll make a generous estimate that 70% of those are wallpogo-heavy with 30% being more like bounce maps or other. And Ill add in a few percent for the soldier-intended wallpogo maps that gives us around 25%.

While it's true that it's not a 50/50 split, once one has completed all of their easier maps (t1 - t4), and start going for higher level completion, the split of wallpogo maps to actual soldier t5's is (from what I can assume) close to, if not greater than 50%. That may be exaggerated, but I invite you to challenge that. I'm pretty sure that, post completion of t1 - t4, greater than 40% of the remaining maps are demo maps.

[MrHappyCamper]

I also do not blame you for making the 50% estimate, but it made me curious to see how things actually are. So I went into the jump map list and calculated how many demo maps there are and how many soldier maps there are, of course the map list contains more and worse maps than tempus, but there are 369 soldier maps and 172 demo maps. Demo maps are 32% of all maps, and I'll make a generous estimate that 70% of those are wallpogo-heavy with 30% being more like bounce maps or other. And Ill add in a few percent for the soldier-intended wallpogo maps that gives us around 25%.

While it's true that it's not a 50/50 split, once one has completed all of their easier maps (t1 - t4), and start going for higher level completion, the split of wallpogo maps to actual soldier t5's is (from what I can assume) close to, if not greater than 50%. That may be exaggerated, but I invite you to challenge that, post completion up to t4, greater than 40% of the remaining maps are demo maps.

I tried but I'm not good enough at excel, tempus doesn't keep track of intended class and the map list doesn't have tiers. But I do agree that wallpogo maps have a higher percentage than 25% when looking at T4 and above. As a small calculation, wallpogo tiers begin at T4 and there are 296 T4-T6 soldier maps out of the 443 soldier tempus maps, so 67%. Then from the 25%, 25/67 = 37%, so wallpogo maps make up about 35-40% of T4-T6 maps. This percentage can be balanced in different ways between T4, T5, and T6 of course.

[Syro]

I also do not blame you for making the 50% estimate, but it made me curious to see how things actually are. So I went into the jump map list and calculated how many demo maps there are and how many soldier maps there are, of course the map list contains more and worse maps than tempus, but there are 369 soldier maps and 172 demo maps. Demo maps are 32% of all maps, and I'll make a generous estimate that 70% of those are wallpogo-heavy with 30% being more like bounce maps or other. And Ill add in a few percent for the soldier-intended wallpogo maps that gives us around 25%.

While it's true that it's not a 50/50 split, once one has completed all of their easier maps (t1 - t4), and start going for higher level completion, the split of wallpogo maps to actual soldier t5's is (from what I can assume) close to, if not greater than 50%. That may be exaggerated, but I invite you to challenge that, post completion up to t4, greater than 40% of the remaining maps are demo maps.

I tried but I'm not good enough at excel, tempus doesn't keep track of intended class and the map list doesn't have tiers. But I do agree that wallpogo maps have a higher percentage than 25% when looking at T4 and above. As a small calculation, wallpogo tiers begin at T4 and there are 296 T4-T6 soldier maps out of the 443 soldier tempus maps, so 67%. Then from the 25%, 25/67 = 37%, so wallpogo maps make up about 35-40% of T4-T6 maps. This percentage can be balanced in different ways between T4, T5, and T6 of course.

I see.

I did mean t5 - t6 though.

[Exile]

look what points do to people