Button Cheating as Soldier

[Starkie]

removing all buttons would take a long time to do, it also kinda fucks people who have WRs on maps with buttons

seems like a bit of a ridiculous thing to do because 1 person button cheated a WR

[Ladyboog]

I mean nobody likes buttons it's not because someone cheated a button jump it's just that they suck, they add nothing to the jump, demos hate them and they barely test jumping skills, if at all.

[yeye]

removing all buttons would take a long time to do, it also kinda fucks people who have WRs on maps with buttons

seems like a bit of a ridiculous thing to do because 1 person button cheated a WR

it would take longer, in the long run, to ensure no one is button cheating if we decide to punish button cheaters.

you know what fucks  people with  WRs on button maps? button cheaters. removing buttons solves this problem. admittedly WRs on maps with button done legit will suffer, but ultimately they will be beaten by "button cheaters" eventually. and once that time comes, it forces anyone that wants to break that WR to get people to sit on the map and button cheat for them.

i understand the issues with removing buttons, but i think it solves more issues than it creates

[Sere]

removing all buttons would take a long time to do, it also kinda fucks people who have WRs on maps with buttons

seems like a bit of a ridiculous thing to do because 1 person button cheated a WR

it'll take a few hours to remove them

it'll take much MUCH longer to monitor every speedrun and follow-up on every report and manually inspect every tt and wr on every button map forever

[Starkie]

you guys realise freezeglitching is banned right
we manage to ban that without having to review every tt and map completion ever

[kaptain]

Yeah I don't get this argument at all. Treat it like cheating, maybe give a warning rather than a ban on first offense because it's not as obvious as freezeglitching, but for the rest just treat it the same: If someone sees it happen, report it, otherwise if someone suspects it they can watch a demo and report it. If people know you'll get banned for it they won't risk it, because eventually people will find out (if not, why aren't there freezeglitched times everywhere?).

On top of that it's very easy for someone with no WRs to say it's 'too bad' for those that have them; I'm not personally affected on any map but on some easy maps especially removing buttons would just make it a free WR, which is completely unfair for the people that have those WRs.

[yeye]

I suggest punishing button cheaters (for soldier) and wiping button cheated (WR) times. If button cheating continues to be a problem even after becoming a bannable offense, then perhaps removing buttons isn't that radical of an idea.

Is that a compromise?

the bonus on elysium may be an example where the admins may have to wipe every single time bc of how many people cheat that bonus, what do y'all think about this

[Superchuck]

I feel this should be on a map by map basis. Maps like cube and beef/beefmas should NOT have their buttons removed because those are either a big part of the map (cube) or it would be ez wr without it like kaptain said. Hell, Boshy had Kidder's beef time wiped because a door was accidentally opened by a random jumper, so imagine if all the doors were open.*

But the majority of maps with just one button jump can afford to have it removed, without affecting wr, since the wr is most likely already button cheated.

It's going to be weird to see where the line is made...

_{*Pretty sure kidder got a faster time anyways, but the point still stands}

[MrHappyCamper]

you guys realise freezeglitching is banned right
we manage to ban that without having to review every tt and map completion ever

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah I don't get this argument at all. Treat it like cheating, maybe give a warning rather than a ban on first offense because it's not as obvious as freezeglitching, but for the rest just treat it the same: If someone sees it happen, report it, otherwise if someone suspects it they can watch a demo and report it. If people know you'll get banned for it they won't risk it, because eventually people will find out (if not, why aren't there freezeglitched times everywhere?).

On top of that it's very easy for someone with no WRs to say it's 'too bad' for those that have them; I'm not personally affected on any map but on some easy maps especially removing buttons would just make it a free WR, which is completely unfair for the people that have those WRs.

Button cheating is not the same as freezeglitching. Freezeglitching is abusing the way the game works using commands, button cheating is abusing the way the map works using our given abilities. The only difference between button cheating and other strats such as headbugs, out of bounds, and angled bhops, is that it requires 2 people. I agree that we should not use a buddy to do a jump more easily or faster, but button cheating has been done in completion since the beginning so it naturally carries over to speedrunning, even though it's an odd one I consider it a strat. Most people would like an easy solution like making it so only the person shooting the button goes through, but we don't have that solution so we would rather just leave button cheating alone than having to deal with punishments that will:
1) Drive the number of button cheaters down making it more beneficial to button cheat, especially for an easy tt that can slip by unless the admins check every tt.
2) Make people worried about accidental button cheats and make cheaters act in a more careful way.
3) Lead to awkward situations like with the bonus that yeye mentioned where the jump is button cheated very often so nearly everyone gets wiped.
4) After the point update, points can be gained from button cheating at every level.
5) If the rule is different for different maps that would be very inconsistent.
6) Create a blurry line of at what speedrun level we should care about button cheating and when we shouldn't.
7) Cause reports on low-level button cheating that wastes admin's time.

Freezeglitching is done much less often and is a much worse cheat, many people button cheat and prohibition didn't work. I would rather leave the freedom to abuse map design with button cheating alone than demonize everyone who button cheats.

[Consition]

If we just removed all soldier maps...

[John]

a plugin-based solution would be to check if the player has hit the buttons (or has hit a button x amount of times for maps like klanana etc where they count number of hits rather than unique buttons) before passing through a point (resets check on failing the jump) but that's a lot of extra work (per-map basis) to stop a few bad egg gamers from being bad gamers

[Starkie]

you guys realise freezeglitching is banned right
we manage to ban that without having to review every tt and map completion ever

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah I don't get this argument at all. Treat it like cheating, maybe give a warning rather than a ban on first offense because it's not as obvious as freezeglitching, but for the rest just treat it the same: If someone sees it happen, report it, otherwise if someone suspects it they can watch a demo and report it. If people know you'll get banned for it they won't risk it, because eventually people will find out (if not, why aren't there freezeglitched times everywhere?).

On top of that it's very easy for someone with no WRs to say it's 'too bad' for those that have them; I'm not personally affected on any map but on some easy maps especially removing buttons would just make it a free WR, which is completely unfair for the people that have those WRs.

Button cheating is not the same as freezeglitching. Freezeglitching is abusing the way the game works using commands, button cheating is abusing the way the map works using our given abilities. The only difference between button cheating and other strats such as headbugs, out of bounds, and angled bhops, is that it requires 2 people. I agree that we should not use a buddy to do a jump more easily or faster, but button cheating has been done in completion since the beginning so it naturally carries over to speedrunning, even though it's an odd one I consider it a strat. Most people would like an easy solution like making it so only the person shooting the button goes through, but we don't have that solution so we would rather just leave button cheating alone than having to deal with punishments that will:
1) Drive the number of button cheaters down making it more beneficial to button cheat, especially for an easy tt that can slip by unless the admins check every tt.
2) Make people worried about accidental button cheats and make cheaters act in a more careful way.
3) Lead to awkward situations like with the bonus that yeye mentioned where the jump is button cheated very often so nearly everyone gets wiped.
4) After the point update, points can be gained from button cheating at every level.
5) If the rule is different for different maps that would be very inconsistent.
6) Create a blurry line of at what speedrun level we should care about button cheating and when we shouldn't.
7) Cause reports on low-level button cheating that wastes admin's time.

Freezeglitching is done much less often and is a much worse cheat, many people button cheat and prohibition didn't work. I would rather leave the freedom to abuse map design with button cheating alone than demonize everyone who button cheats.

I'm not saying freezeglitching is the same as button cheating, I'm saying it's banned and enforced without checking every demo. I'd be far more inclined to freezeglitch than button cheat (if the punishments were the same) as I wouldn't need to rely on someone else not saying anything.

I don't think many people button cheat on soldier already
Show me a map WR other than cubic that's button cheated on soldier

i dont care about bonuses

[kaptain]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Button cheating is not the same as freezeglitching. Freezeglitching is abusing the way the game works using commands, button cheating is abusing the way the map works using our given abilities. The only difference between button cheating and other strats such as headbugs, out of bounds, and angled bhops, is that it requires 2 people. I agree that we should not use a buddy to do a jump more easily or faster, but button cheating has been done in completion since the beginning so it naturally carries over to speedrunning, even though it's an odd one I consider it a strat. Most people would like an easy solution like making it so only the person shooting the button goes through, but we don't have that solution so we would rather just leave button cheating alone than having to deal with punishments that will:
1) Drive the number of button cheaters down making it more beneficial to button cheat, especially for an easy tt that can slip by unless the admins check every tt.
2) Make people worried about accidental button cheats and make cheaters act in a more careful way.
3) Lead to awkward situations like with the bonus that yeye mentioned where the jump is button cheated very often so nearly everyone gets wiped.
4) After the point update, points can be gained from button cheating at every level.
5) If the rule is different for different maps that would be very inconsistent.
6) Create a blurry line of at what speedrun level we should care about button cheating and when we shouldn't.
7) Cause reports on low-level button cheating that wastes admin's time.

Freezeglitching is done much less often and is a much worse cheat, many people button cheat and prohibition didn't work. I would rather leave the freedom to abuse map design with button cheating alone than demonize everyone who button cheats.

No one is arguing button cheating is the same as freezeglitching, but the fact that cheats "must" use a console command and button cheating doesn't, therefore it's just part of the game, is a distinction you made up yourself, there is no reason for one to be cheats and the rest to be fine.
1) Following this logic there should be no rules at all because it only gives cheaters a bigger advantage, surely?
2) There are very few maps where accidental buttoncheats lead to a time advantage (which is the only issue I have with it); on those maps you will have to be careful yes but these are just exceptions (I can't think of anything but the beef/beefmas/steak course doors)
3) Bonuses are long gone at this point anyway, if you want to police bonuses you can start by wiping a bunch of demo bonus WRs held by people with laggy internet that are unbeatable without freezeglitching. I only care about actual speedruns being cheated.
4) see 1)
5) It doesn't have to be, just don't allow it for map/course runs.
6) Don't buttoncheat.
7) Applies to all forms of cheating.

Freezeglitching is useful on a lot more maps, on any map with some sort of wallpogo to climb you can save a bunch of time by freezeglitching. Somehow people don't do it all the time, maybe because it's against the rules and will get them banned?

[valix]

Imo you either need to remove all buttons or not punish it at all. And if there is punishment it needs to be a blanket ban, none of this "it's okay on some maps but not others" shit, if I have to look at aspreadsheet or ask irc if it's allowed is not something that should be acceptable I'm, there should be no ambiguity. this is just not realistically enforceable. Obviously your not going to check every tt/wr, so you'll just be relying on what, people to report it? What will stop me from button cheating to get #9 on a map? Nobodies gonna suspect me (well maybe if it was ME, but some one who's decent) for getting mediocre time, and if I do it on an empty server its not gonna be hard to get away with. You can say "but we don't have freezeglitched runs" but how do you know? I believe Kate had quite a few lag binded runs before she was caught, and as far as I know the only reason she was caught was because she cheated a wr. How do you know my times aren't freezeglitched? You just assume/don't care cause they're bad. I could have easily lag binded during my squared run cause nobodies questions shitty times. I guarantee you have freezeglitched tts and a guarantee you will have button cheated tts if you punish it. Punishing will only stop people from cheating wrs.

[Gorge004]

because cheaters always get caught