Bounces and bhops in Momentum Mod

[Gorge004]

With Momentum Mod around the corner, we have the chance of starting fresh with jumping by choosing what to add/remove from tf2 jumping to make jumping more enjoyable to speedrun.

A discussion that came up in the discord was about bounces and bhops. Currently, bhops and bounces are most liekly not possible in Momentum mod, we'll know for sure once we start testing but according to devs the way the game puts you in a grounded state if you are between 0 and 2 units above the ground was fixed, essentially fixing bounce.
They can add them back, but we can decide if we want everything to be the same as tf2 or fix some of the stuff to make them more "enjoyable".

The 2 extreme options are to either bring them the way they are in tf2 or keep them remove entirely and modify maps that use them when we port then in the game.

There's a grey area tho. For example the jump_asdf demo bhop came up. We could just remove that one when we port the map seeing as most demo speedrunner are not a big fan of a 1 tick trick at the end of the map. If we go that way, we could say that any unintended bhops for demo runs will be remove. Demomen can probably list some maps wich that applies to better than I can, but i dont think that affects a lot of maps. At least for bhops that actually save time.

We could also, map by map, choose bhop/bounce strats that we just want to remove, because they make running the map too hard/less enjoyable and the map would be better without them according to the community. I can't really think of any example off the top of my head for that for soldier, but im sure there are some maps that could benefit from that.

Momentum Mod devs also suggested to make them possible on any height no matter what, and we could simply put some Mmod trigger on platform where we DON'T want bhops/bounces to be possible. Bhops become trivial, not sure we want to go this way but hey the option is there. This brings up the possibility of "random" bhoping everywhere that isnt made impossible.

Gotta keep in mind that Momentum Mod is a speedrun oriented game, changes we make should be base off speedrunning maps and not just casually completing them.

We have the power to start fresh and change anything we want, what should we keep/remove/change is up to us.

[Zike]

I really hope soldier mains don't get to decide whether or not unintended bhops stay in demo maps. Seems very stupid to have people who never play those maps to have much weight to their opinion.

Also some other maps that have demo bhops/jbs are: sira, cake, weekly, and mohr. There's probably a few more I'm forgetting.

[Shunix]

i say hell no unless raiin gives the go ahead to removing the bhop.

can u imagine how many old maps would be defiled if we let zikes opinion decide what we do to old maps?

i shudder at the thought.

[Zike]

i say hell no unless raiin gives the go ahead to removing the bhop.

can u imagine how many old maps would be defiled if we let zikes opinion decide what we do to old maps?

i shudder at the thought.

Thank you mr. soldier main for your valuable feedback on a class and map you do not competitively play

[Shunix]

i say hell no unless raiin gives the go ahead to removing the bhop.

can u imagine how many old maps would be defiled if we let zikes opinion decide what we do to old maps?

i shudder at the thought.

Thank you mr. soldier main for your valuable feedback on a class and map you do not competitively play

imagine selectively choosing what should be and shouldnt be allowed based on what ur good and bad at... "lets allow third person... but random bhops?? heh no way thats just dumb!!"

sorry unintended bhops* its not even random

[newjuls]

bhops fucking suck especially when maps like asdf are near perfect without that 1 stupid fuckin strat that ruins the whole map, and ideally 3rd person won't be allowed on momentum mod either..

[Zike]

i say hell no unless raiin gives the go ahead to removing the bhop.

can u imagine how many old maps would be defiled if we let zikes opinion decide what we do to old maps?

i shudder at the thought.

Thank you mr. soldier main for your valuable feedback on a class and map you do not competitively play

imagine selectively choosing what should be and shouldnt be allowed based on what ur good and bad at... "lets allow third person... but random bhops?? heh no way thats just dumb!!"

sorry unintended bhops* its not even random

These are two different things I think there's a fair amount of people that would want thirdperson removed, however pretty much all the top demos don't enjoy that bhop among others.

[Shunix]

well i dont actually disagree that that bhop is stupid i just think zike is thinking only about what he wants and not whats best for jumping in general, its not like i actually care what happens to demo

[generic]

I do think the option about how bhops work should be another poll entirely. I felt like there were two different debates, what to do with demo bounce strats, and what to do with bounces as a whole.

[Gorge004]

fair, just wanted to get a discussion going other than on discord

Also something to keep in mind, I think it was agreed to make soldier runs on demo maps not count toward the speedrun ranking system. Still early to say what is and what isn't going to be, but the idea is to have a "cosmetic" ranking for completions points, soldier runs on demo maps (and demo runs on soldier maps), and maybe other things like bonus grinding, and then also speedrun leaderboard for actual soldier map run on soldier maps, and demo runs on demo maps only based on your time and ranking vs other gamers.
So when we think about bhop, that shouldn't include demo maps with 5billion bhops for soldiers.

[tyjle]

Bhops are one of my favorite things to do on demo maps. I don't know why but they're fun and don't take that many tries

[879m]

what about bounces/bhops are impossible, except for where a momentum only trigger is that allows tf2 bounces/bhops?

we can add it to all the places needed when porting maps, and new maps can decide if things should ever be bounceable. its more work for mappers, but momentum will only accept high quality stuff anyway.

[gibus]

With Momentum Mod around the corner, we have the chance of starting fresh with jumping by choosing what to add/remove from tf2 jumping to make jumping more enjoyable to speedrun.

not everyone is gonna move to momentum mod though. the goal should be to accurately recreate the tf2 engine so that runs in momentum mod and tf2 can be compared fairly.

[Surreal]

"" I think it was agreed to make soldier runs on demo maps not count toward the speedrun ranking system.""

Yes please,  it's not enjoyable speedrunning demo maps with soldier.

[Gorge004]

what about bounces/bhops are impossible, except for where a momentum only trigger is that allows tf2 bounces/bhops?

we can add it to all the places needed when porting maps, and new maps can decide if things should ever be bounceable. its more work for mappers, but momentum will only accept high quality stuff anyway.

yea i worded that the other way around in the poll thats my bad: Have the ability to bhop and/or bounce any teleheight 1 platform no matter your speed. We would have the option to put a trigger where we want them impossible
I was thinking more of a trigger to remove the ability to bounce instead of a trigger to make them possible when i wrote that, but both comes down to the same thing: putting trigger to make bounces work where you want them to