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Shunix

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Also waaaah I want more points, optimize this event for me waaaah waaaaaaaaaaah


Shunix

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Additionally I dont see how getting 2nd on a map is worth the same (less actually) than getting 1st in trickjumping ESPECIALLY when you allow old jumps to be submitted so someone couldve grinded a trickjump in the past specifically for this and would win with no effort. My penalty suggestion seemed like a good solution to this but i dont think a SPEEDRUNNING competition should reward trickjumping that much anyway.

The entire prize pool for trickjumping being worth more than 2nd place on one of the 6 maps doesnt seem like a problem to me... trickjumping is already pretty undervalued in the jump community despite being the heart and soul that led jumping into what it is today  ;D


Syphilis

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The way the delay poll is setup currently makes it so that 25th wins even though more people want to delay it overall. Just put all delay options into one and make a second poll about how much the delay should be.


HyperDan

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1. what's the problem with old trickjumps?

2. trickjumpers have no incentive

To me, these points go hand in hand. It would be much much better if people were strongly encouraged to do a trickjunp during the event time instead of just submitting a 2-3 year old jump and be done with it. Jumpers should be actively involved in the event, not just being lazy and just sending in an old jump and reaping the benefits of it.

Taking away points for the jump being old/not recorded during the event gives trickjumpers a much better incentive to submit because now they have a fairer chance rather than Jorge (as an example) or whoever just submitting and getting first place without even actively taking part of the competition.

I respect that you don't think that there's anything wrong with old jumps if they're good - but for me personally I'm just going to think "Well, what's the point even submitting a trickjump when it's just going to be the same three or four people winning every category?" Then add this to the fact that Soldier jumps are being compared to Demo jumps, if you either have a really long airpogo old jump or just a really old impressive soldier jump from 2015, you're guaranteed to get free money and I don't think that's fair.

TL:DR: People should be encouraged to come up with new jumps for the event rather than relying on old ones; old ones should be penalised for not being done during the timeslot of the competition


gibus

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Jumpers should be actively involved in the event, not just being lazy and just sending in an old jump and reaping the benefits of it.

...

if you either have a really long airpogo old jump or just a really old impressive soldier jump from 2015, you're guaranteed to get free money and I don't think that's fair.

it's not "being lazy," as they've still put in the same amount of effort; it was just at a different time. it's not "free money" either. if someone has an insane trickjump from 2015 that no one has ever seen i absolutely believe it deserves first place. i highly doubt any old airpogos/soldier jumps would be able to compete with the stuff people can do now anyway, but if they can, they should NOT be punished for it.
˄˅


HyperDan

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Jumpers should be actively involved in the event, not just being lazy and just sending in an old jump and reaping the benefits of it.

...

if you either have a really long airpogo old jump or just a really old impressive soldier jump from 2015, you're guaranteed to get free money and I don't think that's fair.

it's not "being lazy," as they've still put in the same amount of effort; it was just at a different time. it's not "free money" either. if someone has an insane trickjump from 2015 that no one has ever seen i absolutely believe it deserves first place. i highly doubt any old airpogos/soldier jumps would be able to compete with the stuff people can do now anyway, but if they can, they should NOT be punished for it.

Lazy was probably the wrong word, but I was referring to the idea that they didn't do the jump during the period that the competition was open. I just think it would be better if trickjumps that were done during the events had more weight over previous trickumps personally.


Afterglow

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gibus... cease speaking, filthy vermin. Trickjumps from 1 (one) year ago shouldn't count.. that makes zero (0) sense.

Why yall crying anyways, wont prize pool be like 5 keys for winning something anyways. Simply irelevent and negligable. Get a f*ckin job u f*ckin bums. Also, crying about starting on christmas is simply sad. Inshallah we have something good on the day of the infidels.

Also, shoutout to my *good* friend shunibun, really proud of you for your contributing efforts. I played orestes and I gotta say, it's simply ROCK solid, you guys will NOT be disappointed. Really, just really well done. jk it's trash. 5 years of mapping, thousands of hours of hammer, 10+ maps released, and THIS is what u come up with?... Pathetic, Just god dam pathetic. jk it's p good, love u babe <3

Hope this year's beginnings turns out good for yall! BIG shoutout to the folks running the show, I remember how time consuming that sh*t was, you're UNSEEN efforts will NOT be forgotten. To that end I have decided to part with my beloved Lollichop Pyro Cosmetic (see attached image) to contribute to the prize pool. Remember... Just Relax and Free your Mind :)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The music is pumping, the dance floor is jumping.


Superchuck

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hyper daniel 3000 you will always have that nickname dont even try changing aliases

1) Completely unrelated to the thread
2) Anyone can change their alias at any time, who are you to say otherwise
3) Don't fucking respond here to derail this thread anymore
The Rat Master


tyjle

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Wow, seems like a lot of people aren?t happy.

Regardless, I can?t wait to see some great jumping no matter who wins.

Thanks peeps for putting this together even if it?s not perfect.



Boshy

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EDIT: strawpoll website seems to be down atm, I can remake these later if it doesnt get fixed

Following up what I said before I think we should just have a bunch of polls regarding the format instead of arguing.

Already existing ones:
1) https://www.strawpoll.me/19120487 length of the event
2) https://www.strawpoll.me/19121580 when it should start

Additional ones:
3) https://www.strawpoll.me/19125415 map release format (keeping bg5 format or going back to bg4 and earlier or maybe something completely new)
4) https://www.strawpoll.me/19125427 prizepool distribution
5) https://www.strawpoll.me/19125438 separating soldier trickjumping from demo trickjumping
6) https://www.strawpoll.me/19125446 allowing gimmicks for trickjumping (changing weapon properties, airaccel etc)
7) https://www.strawpoll.me/19125458 allowing/disallowing or penalizing old trickjumps

If you want to read me going more in-depth as to why i think these polls are important you can read this wall of text:

1 and 2) The issues with the starting date and length of the event are obvious enough, christmas is a fairly bad starting date for anyone with a life (people visiting or spending time with family etc).

3) Releasing all maps at once puts people who want to seriously compete on all of them and especially as both classes at a disadvantage. Someone could pick one map and grind only that one map as opposed to trying out all of them and they would obviously perform on that map better than someone who plays all of the maps. No idea why this was even changed for bg5 as it always followed the system of 2 maps per week in the past and everyone was fine with it. And as mentioned by superchuck in this thread everyone only grinded the newly released map anyway, so why not make it have a fair system from the start?

4) I see an issue with rewarding FIRST place in trickjumping MORE than SECOND place in SPEEDRUNNING. The reason why I find trickjumping way less impressive IN THIS SPECIFIC FORMAT is time constraints. Trickjumping has practically no time limit to hit your jump if you accept old trickjumps but even if you were to limit it to only 4-5 weeks during the event its still more than having 1-2 weeks to speedrun a stage. In addition to this most trickjumps take 10 to 20 seconds while map runs take way longer so you would get less attempts to get a good run than to hit a good trickjump. On top of all this if you look at trickjumps that won bg5 and bg4 they were really uncreative and poorly judged which is obviously my opinion but JUDGING is SUBJECTIVE regardless while SPEEDRUNNING is NOT. Better jump can lose if people dont vote for it, better run cant lose because its the fastest.

5) NOT separating soldier trickjumps from demo trickjumps is just dumb, you cant compare them at all. But this does bring up an issue with trickjumps where you use soldier weapons on demo and vice versa (exile won 3rd place with this which was fairly undeserved). Which leads into my next point.

6) Defining the rules for trickjumping is important. Back when first few beginnings took place people didnt know about many gimmicky things (or they didnt exist) so these issues didnt take place. To my knowledge having soldier weapons on demo was the only gimmick that took place in beginnings but there were trickjumps in movies that used lower gravity/higher airaccel or just different weapon properties. It does give more options for people to be creative with them but also not everyone would want to use gimmicky stuff for their jumps.

7) As for penalizing old trickjumps I think it makes the most sense as I really dont see why mireal's 2 YEARS OLD jump should win FIRST PLACE in CURRENT YEAR'S TOURNAMENT which gives him more prize money than someone getting 2nd place on s1/s2/s3. I think it makes the community look bad that you have to use old jumps for a tournament that takes place NOW. Penalizing them also gets around the issue of simply not having enough (good) trickjumps but thats the issue of the gamemode itself in the first place (which is why I also think it doesnt deserve such big prizepool if its less popular than speedrunning). If 1st place trickjump that is new is less impressive than 2nd place trickjumps that is old I think its fine as you still feature all of them in the video, just distribute the prizes differently. I dont know what the exact penalty for points should be, but something like 2 points (if 10 is max) sounds reasonable.

Again I encourage people to check out my old bg6 rant for more stuff that could be improved in the future here: https://pastebin.com/qijVaNKV
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 05:43:58 PM by Boshy »


Syro

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Hi everyone, we've delayed the event to January 1st after feedback.

Sorry about the mess.


Superchuck

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Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1 and 2) There's always going to be someone with a time conflict no matter when you do bg6, but Christmas time was slightly meh. I liked summer better.

3) Yea I was a fan of the original format of releasing one demo and one soldier map a week.

4) You don't trickjump, you don't know how much time people have put into trickjumps in the past. You have a speedrunning bias that is showing. Your argument saying that it is less "impressive" is stupid, I would argue it's more impressive. On a map, everyone does the same strats, whereas trickjumping you create something brand new that no one has seen before (ideally). Just because something takes 10-20 seconds to do, doesn't show how long it took to get it. You're only valid argument is that people can do these jumps whenever and submit for this competition, which I agree is not ideal. I would like for the trickjumps to be completed within the same time frame as the speedrunners have.

5) I agree, mushing soldier and demo into one category is stupid

6) I think changing gravity (and to an extent airaccel) is fine because anyone can do it without additional plugins. I would draw the line at using plugins to get creative. As a side note, your argument for not using low grav and airaccel because not everyone wants to use it is dumb, it adds creativity that anyone can use if they want to.

7) Wouldn't need this if we make people do the jump at the time of the competition. Also, you're right that trickjumping is not as popular as it has been in the past. So, how about instead of decreasing that even farther by calling it irrelevant, we embrace this side of jumping by having an incentive to actually trickjump.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2019, 10:23:06 AM by Superchuck »
The Rat Master


Boshy

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Quote
4) You don't trickjump, you don't know how much time people have put into trickjumps in the past. You have a speedrunning bias that is showing. Your argument saying that it is less "impressive" is stupid, I would argue it's more impressive. On a map, everyone does the same strats, whereas trickjumping you create something brand new that no one has seen before (ideally). Just because something takes 10-20 seconds to do, doesn't show how long it took to get it. You're only valid argument is that people can do these jumps whenever and submit for this competition, which I agree is not ideal. I would like for the trickjumps to be completed within the same time frame as the speedrunners have.

I do trickjump (I submitted jumps to movies and beginnings multiple times), just not as much as people who main trickjumping (I think the jumps i did for movies were fairly creative though, especially the pagoda one). On top of that I probably have over 50 bonus wrs on tempus that are practically trickjumps so id say im competent in this.

I am indeed biased towards speedrunning but I did explain why. As for "same strats" argument that could be avoided with offline runs where people wouldnt be able to steal strats, it just so happens I prefer to run on tempus. Again my main issue with prizes is that with PAST BEGINNINGS it felt very undeserving for people to get prize money for trickjumping (LTT's quint getting 2nd in bg3, but gibus' EASIER quint getting 1st in bg4; gebo gettings 1st with the same concept two beginnings in a row; foour losing to gebo/gibus; the whole mireal/jorge/lambda drama; mireal getting 1st with very generic and old jump; most of coop jumps having very poor judging; etc). And my last point is probably that you dont feel the same tension grinding a trickjump as you feel grinding out a good run, its more of a gamble whether your jump wins 1st place or not which is not the case with speedrunning (I wasnt sure if I would win s1 last year, s2 was very scary as I couldnt get the run I wanted in a week and I didnt even hope of winning s3 but got really lucky).

If trickjumping gets handled properly, however, im fine with prizes being distributed equally, as I really doubt anyone here plays for the prizes anyway.


gibus

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