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donuttt · 13 · 1712

donuttt

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Hi guys,
you might be wondering why I'm making this thread as the map has been out for a couple weeks now.
As some of you might know, all beginnings 6 maps will see an update as soon as BG6 is officially over (we're still working on the trickjump movie right now) and bromelia isn't an exception.
Apart from the donor shoutouts at the end, I'm also looking to fix some things:

-Shiddy HDR (certain areas of the map blind anyone that plays the map with HDR enabled, there's an easy fix as I recently found out)
-Shiddy texture seam on jump 9
-Func_nogrenades from jump 13 is cutting through the air vent connector on jump 13, need to cut out that bit so rockets don't randomly disappear there
-The direction the crosshair points at is appareantly a bit off when getting teleported back to the start of last, might have to adjust that a bit

Now this might be a bit controversial and I'm asking for your opinion here:
-I'm also contemplating removing the "Boshy strat" (idk if it was actually him coming up with it but i saw him doing it first) on 14 by lowering the glass wall to prevent the triple on the edge - That might piss off anyone trying to bust Boshy's run but that cheat was never intended and it kills the (in my opinion quite cool) quint strat that was actually intended for this jump.
I have no idea what would have to happen with the run times on the map, maybe I'll just have to live with the fact that I fucked up and none of the testers noticed  ::)

If any other things cross your mind that would improve the map and don't require a lot of effort to ship, please let me know.


Final Version (for now)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r4b54qjCAF7q6gPbzTsE--UCvnpC473g/view?usp=sharing

Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 03:11:35 PM by donuttt »
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wew lad


Boshy

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Any changes that dont impact times (at least heavily) are very welcome. Unfortunately, if you want to see an updated version of the map on tempus you'd have to avoid "fixing" the strat on 14 (or make 2 versions of the updated map, one the way you want it and the other one for tempus). The reasoning for this is that its really not worth it wiping all the times just to fix something that wasnt "intended" (cause I assume sync speedshots werent intended either) and if you keep the times while fixing 14 my time would become literally unbeatable which is also not an option.


Superchuck

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Any changes that dont impact times (at least heavily) are very welcome. Unfortunately, if you want to see an updated version of the map on tempus you'd have to avoid "fixing" the strat on 14 (or make 2 versions of the updated map, one the way you want it and the other one for tempus). The reasoning for this is that its really not worth it wiping all the times just to fix something that wasnt "intended" (cause I assume sync speedshots werent intended either) and if you keep the times while fixing 14 my time would become literally unbeatable which is also not an option.

I disagree to an extent, if a mapper wants to remove a cheat which causes everyone's times to be wiped, that's their decision. Each map is kinda like the intellectual property of a mapper, and just because the map is on Tempus doesn't change that fact.

So I would say it's all up to donutt if he wants people to regrind the map as he intended.


plep

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Any changes that dont impact times (at least heavily) are very welcome. Unfortunately, if you want to see an updated version of the map on tempus you'd have to avoid "fixing" the strat on 14 (or make 2 versions of the updated map, one the way you want it and the other one for tempus). The reasoning for this is that its really not worth it wiping all the times just to fix something that wasnt "intended" (cause I assume sync speedshots werent intended either) and if you keep the times while fixing 14 my time would become literally unbeatable which is also not an option.

I disagree to an extent, if a mapper wants to remove a cheat which causes everyone's times to be wiped, that's their decision. Each map is kinda like the intellectual property of a mapper, and just because the map is on Tempus doesn't change that fact.

So I would say it's all up to donutt if he wants people to regrind the map as he intended.

I very much agree with this, but such changes should only be made within a somewhat short time window.
Can you imagine a mapper coming back out of nowhere to nerf strats that have been out for years?

The time window needs to be determined tho, in bromelia's case I'm not even sure when it was released on tempus?


Superchuck

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Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well it was released for bg6, so like like 2 months ago, but changes on those maps were frowned against even from the start. I think now that bg6 is over, this would be the time for changes.


scotch

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-I'm also contemplating removing the "Boshy strat" (idk if it was actually him coming up with it but i saw him doing it first) on 14 by lowering the glass wall to prevent the triple on the edge - That might piss off anyone trying to bust Boshy's run but that cheat was never intended and it kills the (in my opinion quite cool) quint strat that was actually intended for this jump.
my view on mapping, strats and level design in general:
while you can provide the spaces, structures and parameters for a player to use/abide by, you definitely cant decide how a player uses or even interprets these different elements. players are absolutely ruthless in their routing/strating/disassembly of your map, and a part of mapping is accepting this. this player mindset is integral to speedrunning, and is what allows for 30s+ timesaves on maps that were once thought of as 'done'. of course, there are situations where the "strat" completely breaks the map or is extremely inconsistent, and there are written/instrinsic rules to govern this kind of stuff on servers and in competitions, so players know what to expect. no one feels sad when the backward tele strat gets fixed.

to this situation in particular:
this is all subjective, and there is no right or wrong thing for you to do to your own creation. however, time is very much the deciding factor. i think the fact that it lasted the entirety of bg6, and now has a wr video depicting it, probably means that it shouldnt be fixed. fixes that would invalidate a long standing/well established wr run should be left for a higher level iteration of the map, like zero -> zero_v2, so that the two can peacefully exist.

as for the strat itself:
i actually prefer this strat to the intended one, though i haven't played the new version of this map. in testing it a year ago, the triple felt much more consistent.

with all that said, in retrospect, i should have been a bit more clear...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

:-(


Zike

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lord scotch has spoken blessed be his reign upon this land


Shunix

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The idea that maps should not ever be changed due to the fact that people have runs that would be invalidated is one of the most detremental things to ever happen to jump. How many maps do we have now that are absolute garbage and could be greatly improved if changed? Its sad really.


Boshy

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That's a consequence of people not acting quick enough on fixing/updating their map, besides no one stops you from putting updated maps on other servers, just not tempus for obvious reasons.


Shunix

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That's a consequence of people not acting quick enough on fixing/updating their map, besides no one stops you from putting updated maps on other servers, just not tempus for obvious reasons.

This completely misses my point, if a map can be improved then the time peroid this happens in should have no relevance, putting updated maps on other servers is pointless as most people only jump / speedrun on tempus. If people werent so obsessed with meaningless completion points the general quality of maps would be much higher as bad maps could be changed / removed.


Boshy

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That's a consequence of people not acting quick enough on fixing/updating their map, besides no one stops you from putting updated maps on other servers, just not tempus for obvious reasons.

This completely misses my point, if a map can be improved then the time peroid this happens in should have no relevance, putting updated maps on other servers is pointless as most people only jump / speedrun on tempus. If people werent so obsessed with meaningless completion points the general quality of maps would be much higher as bad maps could be changed / removed.

Usually this is the fault of the admins who add an unfinished map which is why nowadays we try to add maps that are actually finished. This is a special case where there was no other choice because it was a competition and on top of that I won't be able to replicate my run again if the times were wiped. It's like imagine if Kendrick came back from the dead and decided to update aigis to remove a bunch of cheats resulting in wiping kaptain's time, I don't think kaptain would be too happy about that just because the map got a bit better. On top of that some people have really long runs on maps and I'm sure they wouldn't wanna feel like they wasted their time getting that completion. That's why we don't wipe times, but still allow insignificant changes to the same map or add a new version of the map if it's different enough.


donuttt

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Thanks for all your input.
I will not fix the triple strat for the future tempus version, however there will be a seperate version for when this map might come to mmod.

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wew lad


donuttt

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hello gamers,

procrastination man 5000 here, with an updated, hopefully final version of bromelia.

as annouced, i
 -fixed the HDR
-made some texture changes
-made some QOL changes
-added donor names

please let me know of any issues you are encountering.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r4b54qjCAF7q6gPbzTsE--UCvnpC473g/view?usp=sharing




there will be an mmod version that kills the cheap strat on jump 14.



thanks and have fun
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 06:33:56 PM by donuttt »
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wew lad