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A Green Box and How Tempus Points Rot the Brain

Zike · 123 · 24209

HyperDan

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I won't take sides with this whole admin abuse thing.

What I do want to address is the intention of the Post. First of, it is obviously completely valid to criticize any and all decisions any admin/ member of staff makes and to demand an explanation for them. It is also completely valid to demand someone to step down if you think that they aren't suited for the position that they are in.
However what I don't think is justified or helpful when adressing this criticism is insulting someones character and specifically targeting them on a personal level. Which clearly happened here
and which also was clearly one of the main intents of this Post. And when you have responses to this thread like "Nobody likes boshy except his closest friends and his stream subscribers", it brings up the question whether people really care about the supposed topic of the thread which is Boshy abusing powers, or if they simply just dislike Boshy.
If you have criticism address it, if you have a problem with boshy as a person say it, but don't mix the two together. And this is where my main issue is with Zikes post. It will bring up criticism and then follow it up with a personal attack, or like for example in the case of the twitch bans, with a completely irrelevant side note.
Because of this, the obviously intentional offensive wording of the post, and this post being public which there was really no need for if the sole intention was to criticize Boshys admin capabilites, it makes it seem to me as if criticism was never the point at all. But to rather insult Boshy in a very misleading and indirect way.

I'd like to reiterate once again that I'm not against Zike adressing issues with admin abuse, but the way he went about doing that.
To end my point I'll post a quote from Zike himself which really boils my whole argument down to one sentence
"it's incredible how close you came to a genuine criticism which is boshy not uploading his own bonus wrs but everyone else's, but missed the mark"

I can say for myself that the reason I specifically mentioned "Nobody likes boshy except his closest friends and his stream subscribers" is that the people who do have contempt for him is as a result of his decisions while as admin, as well as giving others immunity (although I do not know who "one of his boyfriends refers to here:

similarly one of his boyfriends

So within the context of what I've seen, I think it's a somewhat valid point to mention how any negative use of power while as admin has ultimately led to people's disapproval of you in the community, and those who don't haven't experienced any of your wrongdoings (e.g twitch subscribers), and/or have some sort of protection from demos (presumably to hide any strats that could mean others could take the record) wouldn't have a problem with you.

I'm pretty taking an objective view over all this and just kind of analyzing what I'm seeing from this thread and what others have said as well as voicing my own opinion of being disappointed in some of these actions. I'm not close enough with zike to really give a shit about his circlejerk or really follow it, the same with anyone else, as for the most part I've taken a step back in the community to focus on my life and wanting to other things beside jumping for 7 years straight.


reero

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boshy stuff

1. Me criticizing you for having bias against NA when you repeatedly bash the region, as well as earnestly believe that NA in particular is up and against you is a lot different than me making a youtube video about you. You can maybe say I am biased against you but what would that even accomplish? How would my bias negatively harm anyone besides you? (I also genuinely think I have been arguing so far in a fair and unbiased manner but everyone knows bias is unavoidable).

Also I  said in the discord when this was brought up that skye should not have not said it, it came off as "not strong opinion" because I didn't really read all the chatlogs so I didn't know the full story at the time. https://i.imgur.com/qvQMt9m.png

2. Childish, yeah thats a word to describe it. But it is not "malicious" and thus is the reason most people thought a month ban was too far.

3. Scotch is head admin and was dealing with tempus longer than you have, so I think he holds seniority over you. The fact that your decision (admin) doesn't differ from a decision from a head admin is a problem in and of itself. Also, there have been community polls about issues in the past (button cheating on demo i think?), so theres no reason why we couldn't have went that route here.

4. We can talk about the specifics of the housebeta cube and the arguments in another thread. I brought up multiple times why you were biased (the records were yours, the record was taken by someone you dislike, etc.). Scotch, a head admin, choosing to ban something that he had 0 stake in (network) is a lot different than you, an admin, choosing to wipe, within 20 minutes, a arguable wr and then ban the strat with 0 discussion beforehand. Also as a general point, Scotch made a lot of these "decisions" with help from other admins, back when tempus administration was a lot more active, a lot different than one person (you) making these decisions.

5. I knew you had somewhat thin skin but I really didn't think the video was that bad, If you readd me and zike and unban us from twitch and decide to talk about things with us again I'll be happy to take the video down.


tev

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"It will bring up criticism and then follow it up with a personal attack, or like for example in the case of the twitch bans, with a completely irrelevant side note.
Because of this, the obviously intentional offensive wording of the post, and this post being public which there was really no need for if the sole intention was to criticize Boshys admin capabilites, it makes it seem to me as if criticism was never the point at all. But to rather insult Boshy in a very misleading and indirect way."

Just like you, I shall not take any stance on other contents of your reply however I feel like you're either intentionally, or unintentionally, making the author look bad on purpose. Your only example was in fact not an irrelevant side note as you said. It really is not a good sign if the de facto dictator of Tempus suppresses voices of people who have not done anything wrong especially on the channel of communication that the ban is applied on.

I want to point out that not at any point I attacked Zike himself. In fact I have no problem with him as a person, all im criticizing here is this post.
Secondly, Boshy banning people from his twitch channel and removing them from his friendslist is completely up to him. It in no way can be applied to his actions as a tempus admin. Suggesting that would be like saying that not inviting people to a private house party says anything about how good of admin you are. It's well within his rights to not surround himself with people who for whatever reason he dislikes when it's not directly related to tempus administration.
And lastly, if even the headline of a post contains a direct insult, it is very unreasonable to say that criticizing the offensiveness of this post is somehow ignoring the contents of it.

Edit: That last point of mine is due to me misreading Kattos first sentence in his reply.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 12:00:16 PM by tev »


maxxy

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The fact it was beatable is not any reason to dismiss you editing the zone. They. Simply. Don't. Change. On. Their. Own.

You seem to know a lot about the code for tempus, tell me more.


cat‎

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SELLING POPCORN FOR THE LURKERS $0.25 A BAG

« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 11:55:04 AM by cool cat »


Pinki

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The fact it was beatable is not any reason to dismiss you editing the zone. They. Simply. Don't. Change. On. Their. Own.

You seem to know a lot about the code for tempus, tell me more.

We could test in on rachellos server whether it changes on its own  8)


Gorge004

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Didnt read everything and im not gonna to, just saw my name was mentionned and wanted to explain some things.

I had the greenbox fix ready before waldo even broke the course, i sent it to boshy when i saw he was online. Whether or not you believe the skip should stay, leaving it in the game for people to get times that could potentially be wiped later is a big mistake. You keep the map how it was until a decision is made  then you do w/e you need.

Dont twist my word saying from now any strat should be discuss before setting a time, the green box skip is a major part of the run wich would very quickly make every tt on the map obsolete. This is clearly something that needed to be discuss before being allowed. If you cant understand that idk what to tell you.

As for boshy, I may not agree with 100% of the decision he made, but theres still a lot more stuff getting done currently then there ever was. We would still be sitting at 300 maps waiting for peace to add maps if it wasnt for boshy. And thats not talking about the hundreds of mini fixes that he does before adding maps to tempus, or that I make when something breaks in live map.

Can the job be done better, would having a 2nd active admin help? Idk and i dont care to argue about that, there is active moderation being done to keep tempus as clean as possible.

As for him only caring about his time, he owns like 80% of all records, ofc if something is found its most likely gonna be on his wr lol


reero

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boshy stuff 2

1. You called NA the "worst region", said 90% of the region should be gotten rid of. You shouldn't say these things as admin.

2. https://i.imgur.com/2EdaRG1.png
Maz was not INTENDING, or WANTING to cause harm or wrongdoing. It was a pure intentioned prank.

3. I'm not talking about the discord title, I am talking about how Scotch just has seniority over you and other admins because he has been developing and working on tempus for a very long time. So again, I don't think you are in an adequate position to make the decision on your own. The community, or more admins/the mod team should be the ones weighing in, not JUST YOU.

4.  I don't doubt that you would have re grinded housebeta skip if you wanted to, I just think that your biases had a factor in your decision to hastily wipe and ban the strat, instead of giving a chance to discuss it with the community/scotch. Again, Scotch had 0 personal time and investment in the wipes he did, no personal stake in the matters, so its easy for him to make the decisions without bias. Also, these wipes happened a while ago, when there were a lot more active admins and mods, I could be wrong, but I really think he at least talked it over with SOMEONE else before making the decision. Also I don't know too much about the network cheat and how it worked, nor the toot cheat, so I can't form my own opinions on it but there is a chance that I would also disagree with scotch's decisions too, I am not just out to get you here.

5. I do have respect for you boshy, I just think that if you'd rather burn all bridges with me giving me 0 chances to talk to you in dms then I really don't have a reason to take the video down.

Also, Just to add something useful to the discussion. I think you should not have wiped the times, but disabling the map was OK. This way you leave the strat'd times intact, then you leave it up to discussion with scotch/community, then wipe or don't wipe accordingly. I think you acted too fast with this matter.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 12:22:51 PM by reero »


Kattocate

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"I want to point out that not at any point I attacked Zike himself. In fact I have no problem with him as a person, all im criticizing here is this post.
Secondly, Boshy banning people from his twitch channel and removing them from his friendslist is completely up to him. It in no way can be applied to his actions as a tempus admin. Suggesting that would be like saying that not inviting people to a private house party says anything about how good of admin you are. It's well within his rights to not surround himself with people who for whatever reason he dislikes when it's not directly related to tempus administration."
I'm not sayying you attacked zike. In fact it was most likely unintentional. I just wanted to make sure people's views don't get twisted because of an unintentionally questionable way to put the words together.

Now when it comes to bans, i agree he can remove his friends as he wishes. However when it comes to his bans, it makes no sense for him to ban people just for the sake of banning people. I havent heard of an instance where any of them actually did anything that warrants a ban. Now that just means even though they havent done anything that hurts boshy or the community, he still felt the need to get back at them and ban them.

Lets stay on topic though, i feel like this is straying away


mazlli

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So many arguments and points blown way out of proportion, its hard to come to a conclusion about the whole situation. I'd rather address this problem at its core rather then viewing all the underlying comments and suspicious activities from both sides. I myself am just a community member speaking their mind, so take what you will from me. Also that tempus video was pretty funny, but I still apologize nonetheless for the undue stress I've caused.

If it wasn't obvious enough, people tend to dislike Boshy for the very reason that they are the only person who grinds out records to anyone that challenges them. If the other person gives up simply because they can't be as consistent as Boshy, then that's where Boshy wins and the hate grows. People like to poke fun that taking records is the only thing Boshy does for a living when its simply because no one else will. Nobody grinds as much as Boshy does. Just like every other speedrunning community, there's someone out there with as much dedication Boshy has for jumping, and I think that's pretty cool.

As it was said before, its impossible to keep track of every bonus, be it cheated or lagged, blaming the one and only active admin for not being responsible is ridiculous enough. Boshy is only one person, and although they may have made, what would seem like, biased decisions, it doesn't change the fact that they are the ONLY active admin. Obviously there needs to be more active and trustworthy admins to be able to manage all the things Boshy feels responsible for. However, if you want to maintain a healthy relationship with the community, have them be more involved in a decision making process when it comes to new strats/adding maps rather then deciding what should or shouldn't be allowed at your own discretion. It's self-centered and makes you look bad. I understand that Boshy wanted to maintain integrity within the map as to "not make it garbage" but it still shouldn't be a decision made by one person. There are wrongs and rights on both sides, but the community AND Boshy should be more vocal and speak to each other about problems such as this. A lot of misconceptions are cleared up and become more apparent when "drama" like this is brought up. It highlights things that are inherently wrong with their being only ONE active admin and how stressful it can be. I'm not going to provide with who I think should or shouldn't be admin, but I believe Boshy ultimately tries their best to maintain map integrity, but that decision alone isn't up to Boshy. While the Zike group could do better and report these new found strats BEFORE breaking them, Boshy also could've also made an announcement and ask the community to vote on if the strat should be allowed or not, before making such a hasty decision. It has, unfortunately, been clear though that Boshy believes NA is out to annoy and instigate needless conflict against Boshy.

I'll finish this off with saying, that yes, I acted childish in wanting a tempus video for my dev routed map. I believed that Boshy would've enjoyed the funny video and would have wiped the time and simply moved on. However, my timing with Boshy having just dealt with the course bugs found by newjuls only irritated Boshy more. Could I have said something before I did the dev route? Of course, but I didn't believe Boshy to be so critical about it when I did it. I apologize, yet again, for this and have taken careful consideration for all the things unveiled today.

As such I propose an election.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 12:43:28 PM by mazlli »



Kattocate

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"I want to point out that not at any point I attacked Zike himself. In fact I have no problem with him as a person, all im criticizing here is this post.
Secondly, Boshy banning people from his twitch channel and removing them from his friendslist is completely up to him. It in no way can be applied to his actions as a tempus admin. Suggesting that would be like saying that not inviting people to a private house party says anything about how good of admin you are. It's well within his rights to not surround himself with people who for whatever reason he dislikes when it's not directly related to tempus administration."
I'm not sayying you attacked zike. In fact it was most likely unintentional. I just wanted to make sure people's views don't get twisted because of an unintentionally questionable way to put the words together.

Now when it comes to bans, i agree he can remove his friends as he wishes. However when it comes to his bans, it makes no sense for him to ban people just for the sake of banning people. I havent heard of an instance where any of them actually did anything that warrants a ban. Now that just means even though they havent done anything that hurts boshy or the community, he still felt the need to get back at them and ban them.

Lets stay on topic though, i feel like this is straying away

It's the same thing, I come to my stream to have fun and to interact with people I like, obviously I don't want to have you or anyone else I don't like there, it's the same as my friendlist. Don't see how you being banned on MY twitch has anything to do with this regardless, don't see why you would want to come to my stream if you dislike me anyway, that seems illogical.

You're misinterpreting the whole situation. I have nothing against you as a person and being in your chat is not simply talking about you or to you as you should be able to tell. So yes the way you understood is in fact illogical.

Now you still haven't responded to my earlier questions (one of my first comments on this thread) so please do so.


reero

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boshy stuff 3

gonna start off by saying I think I edited my post as you were typing your response, give it another read over please.

1 and 2 feel argued to death and I feel like we aren't arguing productively there, plus maz chimed in too and thats worth putting that to bed.

3. I, and a lot of other people here, simply disagree that you're making the right decisions, doesn't matter that scotch trusted you to make them, your decisions are very controversial and thus the community will disagree and not respect your ability to act as an admin.

4. I made my assumptions based on me scrolling up far in #admin in discord and seeing that back in the day, (not even too long ago but still a bit ago), the channel was flooded with discussion between both mods and admins alike (scotch, kidder, larry, even jay was vey talkative in the channel). You were also part of the discussions. If scotch posted and said that everything you've done here was good (which I doubt), I would respect his opinion a lot more because given that he is sort of removed from the politics of jump, he has very little bias. I would also be willing to argue against him as strongly as I am against you. I feel as if I have nothing to apologize for too, I feel as if my criticisms are valid.

5. Before I even made the video, you decided to cut ties with me. I did literally nothing remotely wrong before you burned the bridges, and you have 0 proof of me being "fake". Part of the reason that the video was a bit harsher is because of how you instantly banned and blocked all communication with me because I happened to be in the server where someone broke one of your course records with the Green Box Skip. You are publicly attacking my character after I spent hours trying to talk to you and help you out, of course I am gonna defend myself.


ondkaja

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I'm not going to respond to the rest of the post as it is getting quite off-topic and not related to the subject at hand. I will try to be as factual as possible.


4. I don't have memory of every single wr I get, I have over a thousand of them, that one was probably just me messing around when I had garbage internet (I still do occasionally as you can see on my stream) but sure I can wipe it next time im in tf2 but its rather annoying when people focus on my times and not cander or kater who also have lagged times. It's impossible to track every NOT SO LEGIT bonus times, that's just inhuman.


I think all times that are lagged, especially when they are intentionally lagged, should be wiped. Every WR should be physically possible to beat, and if they aren't, they should be wiped.

Since you implied that the bonus might be because of your "garbage internet", I looked into it further and recorded your demo of the bonus so I could upload it to YouTube.



As we can see in every single attempt in this demo (except a few), you lag right before exiting the start dz. When this happens, it's a very strong indication that someone is intentionally freezeglitching, because you are otherwise not likely to lag just as you are about to leave the dz, especially not multiple times in a row.

As you should know as an admin, freezeglitching on Tempus is a bannable offense and people have been banned from it previously. Also, there is backtalking of the then current WR holder of this bonus, contradicting your points about growing as a person. Admittedly this is in 2019 so the personal growth might have taken place at a later date.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 01:07:41 PM by ondkaja »


ondkaja

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Seems like the same thing happened in this demo:



It's extraordinarily lucky how you manage to lag only when you leave the start dz, where it would benefit you the most, but you don't lag anywhere else in the demo. :)