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Tempus Cup 2022 Launch + Information

Exile · 67 · 17013

Poll

Change Tempus Cup stage 2/3 to 1 week each instead of 2?

Make it 1 week for stage 2 and 3
18 (60%)
keep it as is (2 weeks per stage)
12 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 30


Hass

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I don't think this is a good idea. A majority of the top 10 runs were done offline. I know I won't play if it's tempus only due to tempus being awful to play on and I'm certain chuck won't play either and we both will get top 3/5 on s2 & s3. Also, I want to be able play the map whenever I want which I can do offline but on tempus, you have to vote it on which can just be tedious.

Do a majority of the top 10 runners actually care that much about banning offline? Is there a korean server for song to play on?

Even if players hide their times, I feel like it's not going to make the ones who got sniped magically grind more (mostly).

I understand changing it from 2 weeks down to 1 week but this offline ban is just plain silly.



Shunix

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disallowing offline runs seems insanely short sighted to me... i couldnt get a single good time online for years due to my internet being unstable and online servers being unplayable for me, id go as far to say it would be better to hide tempus times somehow or force users to post updates of their runs on a daily basis if they're playing offline instead... rlly dont like this decision.


hex

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get fucked, everybody who doesn't get 5 ping on their tempus server of choice. changing rules halfway through a competition is incredibly sloppy and the only reason why changing the deadlines for s2/s3 was moderately acceptable was because it was voted on by everybody beforehand. just banning offline runs because 2 people behind the scenes cried about not being able to see everybody's times as soon as they happen is very dumb and looks like shit.


Boshy

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The main reason for "online only" seems to be aimed at preventing people from hiding times, but here are a few reasons as to why such a change is worse than you might think.

What you get by making it online only:

- punish people who predominantly play offline (ex: chuck and hass both being one of the best contenders for s2 and s3 respectively)

- force people into uneven playing field (some people have worse ping/connection than others)

- deny the general QoL features of offline such as playing the map anytime you want (as opposed to waiting for a server) and also general consistency (online servers are not comparable in terms of stability)

- "prevent" people from hiding times (you can still play offline to get good at the map, then get a run online last day, preventing people from knowing your strats and still effectively hiding your pr the entire time)

- dz bugs (although very rare)

In general people mostly play online because it's convenient to not have to deal with recording demos as your time gets automatically submitted. However most competitive (and winning) runs would be offline due to it giving you the edge with no ping and general consistency. Online format would've made sense if this was surf but this is jump and ping DOES affect people's ability to play far more.

It'd be much better to wait for release of mmod to hold "online only" tournaments like that. Not to mention that changing rules mid competition is a very strange move.

In conclusion you aren't necessarily making it more competitive and in turn make it worse for quite a few people.

P.S. Also song is getting owned big time since there are no korean servers anymore as far as I'm aware


hooligan

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Banning offline literally helps no one as others have pointed out, but on the subject of hiding times, I'd like to know who the people actually complaining about this are, if they are even running and attempting to be competitive for times.

Either A) You're too lazy/dumb to put in the effort to figure out strats to go fast and just want to steal them, convinced that others are maliciously hiding strats to save MILLIONS of seconds over you
B) You're trying to figure out what the most mediocre time to post is that will allow you to get X position on the leaderboard

Are either of those really worth catering towards in a competition? These people need to stop whining and start trying for the best possible time they believe they can post, or are atleast satisfied with, regardless of who they think they're up against.

I was planning on putting more effort into s2/3 since i wasn't enjoying trying to grind s1, but removing the offline option, for all the QoL reasons people have already mentioned, is just garbo


Finn91

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I don't even participate but bring back offline runs thanks


Superchuck

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I'm going to continue to run offline and just assume that this change will be reverted by the end of the week.


Waldo

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What's up gamers,

Thank you all for participating in The Tempus Cup so far, and I hope you enjoyed our lovely stage 1 maps. I'll make a few clarifications here since there seems to be some confusion.

1. Jumping happens online.

Somehow this seems to be contentious, but it's an open secret: almost every map record is on Tempus; almost every single active jumper plays exclusively on Tempus/ECJ/JA/etc., and the vast majority of jumpers never play offline at all, unless it's to test a map before it's added to servers.

At one point this was not the case! In the days of trigger_hurt regen and rockethops, a lot of people played offline. Luckily, we have been saved from the hodgepodge of issues with offline runs by Tempus, which prevents all of these simply by virtue of being online and centralized. Precise run times and consistent CPs are great too!

2. Allowing offline runs creates a perverse incentive.

The inarguable advantage presented by playing offline (mostly for demo) drives most competition offline, which simultaneously gives an advantage to players familiar with it (despite having no bearing on ordinary jump speedrunning i.e. Tempus), as well as forcing ordinary Tempus players to take the time to set up and acquaint themselves with a very different environment. Since Tempus is the de facto standard for jumping, this is alienating to much of the playerbase. For example, even though Vice has a substantially better connection to Tempus than I do, I would definitely do better in competing with him online, since he has considerably more time spent playing offline. This skill should not factor into placements, since online runs are the standard.

Furthermore, many jumpers at all levels have no desire at all to ever practice offline, since they play jump as warmup/practice for competitive play and wish to have a consistent environment between the two.

Additionally, Tempus has a very open community regarding runs and strats; any demo or time is available for download for anyone on request (unless, however, someone abused admin to hide that specific demo). No matter how well an offline competition is structured, it will never get close to approximating this. No matter how possible it may be for someone to conspire to practice offline until the last minute and then run online, it will still be vastly more open, and perfect is the enemy of good. Props to soup and song for streaming their offline gameplay, despite the massive potential for creative timesave on jump_beryllium!

3. Server complaints are irrelevant for the vast majority of players.

There are currently 14 North American servers, 10 European servers (+2 RU), 6 Oceania servers, and 4 Asian servers. For players in covered regions, there has been no real difficulty in securing servers to play on throughout the first stage, especially since many of those servers are rank restricted and nearly all contenders are of sufficient rank to play on them. At the time of writing, it's prime time in EU, and there are no fewer than 5 servers on stage 2 maps, covering all of the sub-regions. This is simply not a concern for anyone who has actually been playing online so far.

I am on record stating that I would have spun up temporary servers for any underserved region if, for example, Asia servers had gone down before the start of the competition. Song made no attempt to contact me, or any Tempus admins about this, and in fact stated many times that he was done with jumping and wouldn't participate anyways. Even after streaming attempts, he said he wouldn't submit unless it was WR. I'm not going to spend the time and money to run a KR server if he's not willing to even ask for it seriously, offer to pay for any part of it, or go 2 weeks without trying to wipe and quit playing.


Initially, the entire event was going to be online only; it was only due to a miscommunication that this was not the case. We decided to allow offline times for stage 1, rather than make a rule change mid-stage. We considered giving players with a legitimate reason to play offline (hass, syph) the option on a case-by-case basis, but this proves difficult to enforce fairly and also grants them the aforementioned inarguable advantages over the rest of the competition.


Once again, thank you for playing in this free entry competition, and I hope you have fun competing in The Tempus Cup on The Tempus Network.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 02:39:46 PM by Waldo »




hooligan

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Initially, the entire event was going to be offline only

You spend a wall of text explaining why offline isn't appropriate then say this. Any credence in your previous arguments goes out the window.
Without pointing out in detail every issue of the argument, you've claimed that offline is bad because it drives competition offline, then proceeded to try and justify why online should be the only way people jump, rather than explain what is so bad about offline. The general feeling is "I would do better online therefore everyone must play the way I play".  It seems you have a very narrow view of what makes someone a "good" or "better" jumper.

Have you, or exile, or whoever made this decision, asked the people who donated to the prize pool for this free entry competition what they think? You seemed perfectly fine to throw up a poll to the community for a rather mundane decision to limit the scope of the grind for these stages, but have you even consulted the stakeholders of this event for something that will drastically impact who competes, and to what extent they will able to?



Superchuck

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Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thank you for the feedback, I am very thankful for the communication between organizers and the community before making this change. I see that there is a leaderboard for people's top times and I couldn't help but notice that 3/10 for soldier and 7/10 for demo of the top 10 times were completed offline. Now my math by be wrong, but that seems to equal roughly 50% of the best times coming from offline runs.  Now I may not be an expert in this field of study, but there seems to be some motivation for people wanting to run offline instead of online. Perhaps it's the lack of ping? How about not dealing with servers on the wrong map? What about a smoother overall experience?

Passive aggressiveness aside, how about instead of removing all of offline runs (which a lot of people would prefer over tempus), you make the perceived entry barrier to offline easier? Maybe have a step-by-step tutorial on how to install speedo or other plugins, or a tutorial on how to records demos, etc.\

"The inarguable advantage presented by playing offline (mostly for demo) drives most competition offline"
Bro what? Offline is just better, as you clearly state. So why are you making everyone now compete in a worse environment? What kind of logic is this?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 12:30:19 PM by Superchuck »
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IzzyHoP

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