Tempus Cup 2022 Launch + Information

[Superchuck]

"People who think they will do better with offline allowed demonstrating pretty clearly that that's their only argument for it."

I imagine you're referring to me and Hass. But let's take a look at some other people's opinions (and potentially their reasoning).

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can you just undo that haha

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disallowing offline runs seems insanely short sighted to me... i couldnt get a single good time online for years due to my internet being unstable and online servers being unplayable for me, id go as far to say it would be better to hide tempus times somehow or force users to post updates of their runs on a daily basis if they're playing offline instead... rlly dont like this decision.

^ one of your mappers

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get fucked, everybody who doesn't get 5 ping on their tempus server of choice. changing rules halfway through a competition is incredibly sloppy and the only reason why changing the deadlines for s2/s3 was moderately acceptable was because it was voted on by everybody beforehand. just banning offline runs because 2 people behind the scenes cried about not being able to see everybody's times as soon as they happen is very dumb and looks like shit.

^ one of your mappers

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The main reason for "online only" seems to be aimed at preventing people from hiding times, but here are a few reasons as to why such a change is worse than you might think.

What you get by making it online only:

- punish people who predominantly play offline (ex: chuck and hass both being one of the best contenders for s2 and s3 respectively)

- force people into uneven playing field (some people have worse ping/connection than others)

- deny the general QoL features of offline such as playing the map anytime you want (as opposed to waiting for a server) and also general consistency (online servers are not comparable in terms of stability)

- "prevent" people from hiding times (you can still play offline to get good at the map, then get a run online last day, preventing people from knowing your strats and still effectively hiding your pr the entire time)

- dz bugs (although very rare)

In general people mostly play online because it's convenient to not have to deal with recording demos as your time gets automatically submitted. However most competitive (and winning) runs would be offline due to it giving you the edge with no ping and general consistency. Online format would've made sense if this was surf but this is jump and ping DOES affect people's ability to play far more.

It'd be much better to wait for release of mmod to hold "online only" tournaments like that. Not to mention that changing rules mid competition is a very strange move.

In conclusion you aren't necessarily making it more competitive and in turn make it worse for quite a few people.

P.S. Also song is getting owned big time since there are no korean servers anymore as far as I'm aware

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Banning offline literally helps no one as others have pointed out, but on the subject of hiding times, I'd like to know who the people actually complaining about this are, if they are even running and attempting to be competitive for times.

Either A) You're too lazy/dumb to put in the effort to figure out strats to go fast and just want to steal them, convinced that others are maliciously hiding strats to save MILLIONS of seconds over you
B) You're trying to figure out what the most mediocre time to post is that will allow you to get X position on the leaderboard

Are either of those really worth catering towards in a competition? These people need to stop whining and start trying for the best possible time they believe they can post, or are atleast satisfied with, regardless of who they think they're up against.

I was planning on putting more effort into s2/3 since i wasn't enjoying trying to grind s1, but removing the offline option, for all the QoL reasons people have already mentioned, is just garbo

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I don't even participate but bring back offline runs thanks

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If the concern is people hiding times/strats, how about requiring offline players to stream their attempts and submit their times within 6 hours of achieving the time rather than banning them outright?  I'm not quite yet good enough to hope for a top 10 time in a competition like this, but if I were to participate, I'd really want to play offline.

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What's up gamers,

Thank you all for participating in The Tempus Cup so far, and I hope you enjoyed our lovely stage 1 maps. I'll make a few clarifications here since there seems to be some confusion.

1. Jumping happens online.

Somehow this seems to be contentious, but it's an open secret: almost every map record is on Tempus; almost every single active jumper plays exclusively on Tempus/ECJ/JA/etc., and the vast majority of jumpers never play offline at all, unless it's to test a map before it's added to servers.

logging in JUST to reply to this.  I play jump maps every day but ever since my ping on ECJ and Tempus were no longer something I could deal with (argue with me all you want, I went from consistent 20 ping for YEARS to 60 ping, and yes there is a difference), I have jumped almost exclusively offline. 

I'm not even really participating in this competition, I just jump for fun, but this is a really awful move for reasons already stated.

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To the couple players who cry about hiding strats/times, maybe try harder next time 

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RIP players with shiternet

Wow. That's quite a few people who are against this change. Maybe it's time to stop and think that this might not be your best idea.

[lily]

just want to add that online-only is nice for spectators; personally i'm really excited to be able to watch the top runners' attempts live

that being said, there are some fair concerns raised for sure and they should also be considered. not saying either side is right or wrong here, just wanted to add this point to the debate

[ondkaja]

Given the fact that a new method of cheating that is undetectable was recently discovered and that at least one of the top runners has a long history of cheating, and that previous competitions has had cheated runs, can we really risk the legitimacy and integrity of the competition by allowing offline runs? Especially when so much is at stake? No, the competition HAS to take place on Tempus in order to guarantee a fair and relatively cheat free environment. I applaud Waldo for his brave decision to uphold the legitimacy of this prestigious jumping competition against the -tt horde. It should have been done from round one, but you know what they say, better late than never.

[hex]

"People who think they will do better with offline allowed demonstrating pretty clearly that that's their only argument for it."

I imagine you're referring to me and Hass. But let's take a look at some other people's opinions (and potentially their reasoning).

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can you just undo that haha

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disallowing offline runs seems insanely short sighted to me... i couldnt get a single good time online for years due to my internet being unstable and online servers being unplayable for me, id go as far to say it would be better to hide tempus times somehow or force users to post updates of their runs on a daily basis if they're playing offline instead... rlly dont like this decision.

^ one of your mappers

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get fucked, everybody who doesn't get 5 ping on their tempus server of choice. changing rules halfway through a competition is incredibly sloppy and the only reason why changing the deadlines for s2/s3 was moderately acceptable was because it was voted on by everybody beforehand. just banning offline runs because 2 people behind the scenes cried about not being able to see everybody's times as soon as they happen is very dumb and looks like shit.

^ one of your mappers

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The main reason for "online only" seems to be aimed at preventing people from hiding times, but here are a few reasons as to why such a change is worse than you might think.

What you get by making it online only:

- punish people who predominantly play offline (ex: chuck and hass both being one of the best contenders for s2 and s3 respectively)

- force people into uneven playing field (some people have worse ping/connection than others)

- deny the general QoL features of offline such as playing the map anytime you want (as opposed to waiting for a server) and also general consistency (online servers are not comparable in terms of stability)

- "prevent" people from hiding times (you can still play offline to get good at the map, then get a run online last day, preventing people from knowing your strats and still effectively hiding your pr the entire time)

- dz bugs (although very rare)

In general people mostly play online because it's convenient to not have to deal with recording demos as your time gets automatically submitted. However most competitive (and winning) runs would be offline due to it giving you the edge with no ping and general consistency. Online format would've made sense if this was surf but this is jump and ping DOES affect people's ability to play far more.

It'd be much better to wait for release of mmod to hold "online only" tournaments like that. Not to mention that changing rules mid competition is a very strange move.

In conclusion you aren't necessarily making it more competitive and in turn make it worse for quite a few people.

P.S. Also song is getting owned big time since there are no korean servers anymore as far as I'm aware

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Banning offline literally helps no one as others have pointed out, but on the subject of hiding times, I'd like to know who the people actually complaining about this are, if they are even running and attempting to be competitive for times.

Either A) You're too lazy/dumb to put in the effort to figure out strats to go fast and just want to steal them, convinced that others are maliciously hiding strats to save MILLIONS of seconds over you
B) You're trying to figure out what the most mediocre time to post is that will allow you to get X position on the leaderboard

Are either of those really worth catering towards in a competition? These people need to stop whining and start trying for the best possible time they believe they can post, or are atleast satisfied with, regardless of who they think they're up against.

I was planning on putting more effort into s2/3 since i wasn't enjoying trying to grind s1, but removing the offline option, for all the QoL reasons people have already mentioned, is just garbo

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I don't even participate but bring back offline runs thanks

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If the concern is people hiding times/strats, how about requiring offline players to stream their attempts and submit their times within 6 hours of achieving the time rather than banning them outright?  I'm not quite yet good enough to hope for a top 10 time in a competition like this, but if I were to participate, I'd really want to play offline.

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What's up gamers,

Thank you all for participating in The Tempus Cup so far, and I hope you enjoyed our lovely stage 1 maps. I'll make a few clarifications here since there seems to be some confusion.

1. Jumping happens online.

Somehow this seems to be contentious, but it's an open secret: almost every map record is on Tempus; almost every single active jumper plays exclusively on Tempus/ECJ/JA/etc., and the vast majority of jumpers never play offline at all, unless it's to test a map before it's added to servers.

logging in JUST to reply to this.  I play jump maps every day but ever since my ping on ECJ and Tempus were no longer something I could deal with (argue with me all you want, I went from consistent 20 ping for YEARS to 60 ping, and yes there is a difference), I have jumped almost exclusively offline. 

I'm not even really participating in this competition, I just jump for fun, but this is a really awful move for reasons already stated.

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To the couple players who cry about hiding strats/times, maybe try harder next time 

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RIP players with shiternet

Wow. That's quite a few people who are against this change. Maybe it's time to stop and think that this might not be your best idea.

FWIW i don't really care about the competition being online-only or not. if anything it does make sense given the name is literally "the tempus cup." what bothers me personally is the fact that this change was made halfway through the competition, not beforehand. people are already getting money for offline S1 runs it would be a whole lot better to just suck it up with the scuffed event and make sure to do it better next year.

[firestabber]

You keep dealing in hypotheticals where johnnydemoman22 is behind your logic, but you have real people being affected versus your hypothetical. You are forcing some top jumpers into a worse environment. Look at all the comments in response to your decision, notice a common trend?

Well I haven't interrogated every active jumper, but off the top of my head I don't exactly think of cander and vice as offline players (except vice for, you guessed it, Beginnings). I would be surprised if any of the demo players with online PRs didn't feel this way to some extent; I encourage any of them to call me out if they disagree. Beryllium definitely benefits more than the average map from offline on account of all the precise 1pre/turning airpogo strats.

I know tomato tom intended to run stage 1, but decided to stop playing instead of run offline when it was clear that he wasn't going to get a good run online.

I do notice a common trend: People who think they will do better with offline allowed demonstrating pretty clearly that that's their only argument for it. Please give me a reason why this jump competition should not follow the same rules as ordinary speedrunning on Tempus.

There's plenty of reasons why this shouldn't follow the ordinary set of rules.  It just seems that you've already made up your mind on the matter. 

Reason 1: the rules used to be different, changing them mid-competition is confusing and generally frowned upon.
2: Getting used to a certain ping can take some time, so if people were practicing expecting an offline competition, they may now need to readjust due to a change in circumstances
3: Offline grants a level playing field where server and internet conditions aren't a factor, and has generally been used for these sorts of events in the past.  Not everyone has Waldo Gaming network in their backyard. 
4: Maybe johnnydemoman22 doesn't know about the advantages of playing offline, but maybe he did, but didn't learn about this rule change mid-competition.  I think it'd be way worse for a player to learn their run was disqualified than it would be to learn that they could've gotten a slight advantage playing offline. 
5: Given that the event is limited time, especially since the duration is shorter, trying to find an open server is even more of a concern

Obviously there's reasons it *should* be on Tempus only...  It's the "Tempus Cup" after all.  But it's disingenuous to act like there's no reasons to allow offline runs.

[Syphilis]

I understand that making a competition out of the standard way of playing the game may sound interesting but it simply makes for a worse competition for competitors and spectators.

 1. Even if we assume that offline is a massive advantage compared to 5 ping online. I think it pales in comparison to the disadvatage 60+ ping would get you compared to 5 ping. and that's without taking into acount other internet quality differencies. Allowing offline alleviates this. So any talk of an uneven playing field in support of online-only is just silly.

 2. Something that hasn't been brought up is that you simply reduce the quality of the top runs. I think a big part of why these competitions are cool is because of how great the results can be, so when you have top 3 demo all being more comfortable offline, restricting that simply makes the end results worse. Not to mention song won't even be part of that. Like you can rationalize it, because why didn't he tell me he's competing and set up a server?(lol) but he is a serious contender and could be competing and contributing to a more interesting competition.

 3. This is minor but I think hidden runs are actually good. The big reveal at the end of the week is always a banger in these types of competitions. For example this is how another speedrunning competition anounces the  resultshttps://youtu.be/lCgwkXI1Z_c?t=2047

4.

If we accept that offline is so much better because of the lack of ping, the (already refuted) lack of servers, or the "smoother overall experience," why are the world records for almost every map (excluding all offclass, naturally) online? Why are such a disproportionate number of offline records explicitly tied to competitions with prizes? It gives an advantage, but one that is only really used when prizes are involved *because* it isn't how people play the game now.

You seem to be doubting the smoother overall experience? How is more consistency, less delay and no internet issues not an objectively better gameplay experience? An actual reason from personal experience, is because there's no leaderboards offline. The reason people flock to offline once there's prizepools invlolved is because all of a sudden playing the game at its best can actually matter and get on a leaderboard. Otherwise it feels like you're playing by yourself.

[Larry]

> donate to incentivise best runs
> best runs banned

[Shunix]

Given the fact that a new method of cheating that is undetectable was recently discovered and that at least one of the top runners has a long history of cheating, and that previous competitions has had cheated runs, can we really risk the legitimacy and integrity of the competition by allowing offline runs? Especially when so much is at stake? No, the competition HAS to take place on Tempus in order to guarantee a fair and relatively cheat free environment. I applaud Waldo for his brave decision to uphold the legitimacy of this prestigious jumping competition against the -tt horde. It should have been done from round one, but you know what they say, better late than never.

take waldos feet out of ur mouth bootlicker

[maxxy]

[hooligan]

It only gets rid of competition if people decide to throw a hissy fit over it and quit instead of playing the same game as usual.

I know tomato tom intended to run stage 1, but decided to stop playing instead of run offline when it was clear that he wasn't going to get a good run online.

:thinking:

So are we gonna get any word about the fact that the stage 3 maps were briefly available to the public for some unknown amount of time (according to rellort)? Or is that just gonna get ignored as an avenue for cheaters because obviously offline discrimination is more important.

[hex]

So are we gonna get any word about the fact that the stage 3 maps were briefly available to the public for some unknown amount of time (according to rellort)? Or is that just gonna get ignored as an avenue for cheaters because obviously offline discrimination is more important.

please do elaborate on this claim

[hooligan]

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So are we gonna get any word about the fact that the stage 3 maps were briefly available to the public for some unknown amount of time (according to rellort)? Or is that just gonna get ignored as an avenue for cheaters because obviously offline discrimination is more important.

please do elaborate on this claim

You'd have to ask rellort for the exact details, apparently the tempus total-map download thing that used the api had the stage 3 maps included in them. He posted about this in the general channel of the tempus discord, and when i saw it i mentioned he should probably not post about it there. Im ASSUMING he told exile or someone but im bringing it up now since we already have baseless accusations of possible cheating being thrown. At this point its been a few hours now since that message was sent.

[Scoot]

Coming back from the dead to just say that banning offline runs is dumb.

If you're gonna do that you have it as a ground rule from the start. And not only is it less competitive to limit the competition to online, it's just straight unfair for people who have bad internet. There's nothing stopping people from playing offline, but there are reasons stopping people playing online.

And saying "well the majority of jump is online now" is not a good enough reason...

[Exile]

I'll try to keep this brief but I'll start off by apologizing for this mess. The decision came largely due to my indifference whether or not the tournament remained as is or went fully online, but me being indifferent is/was extremely irresponsible so I'll apologize again for that too and do better. I'll avoid rehashing points and apologizing constantly because talking in circles won't really go anywhere. The fact of the matter is both sides have voiced their opinions/complaints pretty clearly to me and I understand both sides fairly well I'd say, but the majority of the community is clearly against the decision. My goal in hosting a competition was to provide a fun experience for the majority of jumpers and it's been voiced this change was not in line with that so I think the most reasonable thing to do is revert the change. I do greatly appreciate everyone voicing their thoughts in this thread and I'd like to apologize again for the drama. I hope this does not discourage anyone from continuing to take part in the competition because there was still a lot of work put in by so many people and wouldn't really be possible without them. Feel free to flame, criticize, or bully me since it is probably well deserved. I'm going to extend the date of stage 2 back a day to make up for the confusion and updated schedule will be below and in the main post. Anyways, I hope this was worded coherently enough and I will try to address other concerns when possible.

• Stage 2 start date: Jan 15th
• Stage 2 end date: Jan 22th, 11:59 EST
• Stage 3 start date: Jan 23th
• Stage 3 end date: Jan 29th, 11:59 EST

Also stage 1 is closed now thanks to everyone who participated.

[reero]

imo a good compromise would be having offline runs have a stricter deadline than online runs, maybe by a day or two, such that hiding strats/times isnt possible.