Tier grading system

[uaa]

Hello,

So I have been jumping on and off since ~2012. I know this is an old game - but I was thinking about map tiers or let's say - jump map grading system.

*current grading system*
Basically jump maps are graded between t1 and t6 - t1 being the easiest, t6 being the hardest (t0 excluded). It means that the grading scale is close ended - ie. on tempus network there are no maps harder than t6 - even if those t6's vary in difficulty. For example demo t3 jump_noob is really different in terms of difficulty than demo t3 jump_ninjacookie.

Hypothetically lets think of a new map that is extremely difficult, more difficult than current t6 maps - it would still be rated as t6 because this is the end of a scale - in my opinion that would not be fair to the players that completed this map as it would be worth the same in ranking points as the other, easier t6 maps.  What happens if we add more tiers then? Lets say t1-t10 system - the same thing would happen  over time - there would be the most extreme t10 map, harder than other t10 maps in the map rooster. In the long run this grading system is stopping innovation as to what the hardest jump map is and how to rank map runs in the player rankings.

*open ended scale*
Actually - similar thing happed in climbing/mountaineering between 1920's and 1980's - but let me describe some similarities between jump maps and climbing routes.
Both jump maps and climbing routes require:
* certain skill set (ex. jumping air pogo, ex. climbing one finger pockets)
* some kind of endurance (A- jump map is generally t2, but with one jump rated as t3 or B- maybe all of the jumps are t3 jumps?)
* overall feeling of difficulty for the ascensionist/jumper that completes the run
Both jump maps and climbing routes are basically an obstacle course.

In the 1920's a german climber created the then close-ended UIAA scale consisting of roman numerals I through VI. With I being the easiest and VI being the most difficult. So over time number of routes graded VI (most extreme) grew - some being easier, some being harder for the grade. This looks similar to the current state of jump maps on tempus.

As the years progressed the VI grade could mean relatively easy route or really extreme route depending on when it was first ascended as the climbers skill expanded. In the end it would be difficult to compare two routes graded VI.  As an answer for this in the 1980's french sport climbers created new, open ended grading system that is based on the UIAA scale.
The grading of the already established routes didn't change. Ie. if the route was graded VI, then it kept its grading.  But the new, harder routes would be graded in 'french scale': 6a, 6b, 6c, 7a, 7b, 7c, 8a , [...] the hardest climbing route is currently graded 9c. More difficult grades are to be expected.

*who grades?*
But who grades the new routes then?  Traditionally the first person to ascent the route - or in jumping terms - the creator of the map suggests the grading - something along the lines of "I think this climb is a 7a" / "I think this is a t3 map" .

This first grade is only a suggestion as the 2nd ascensionist grades the route ie. "This climb is harder than 7a's that I already climbed, I think  it should be graded 7b" / "This map is harder than t3's already completed by me, I think its a t4".

*conclusion*
As the number of ascents raises and each subsequent climber grades the climb, then an average can be calculated. Also, you need to complete the climb to be able to grade, so you need some level of competency.
Climbs with more 'votes' are considered to be more trustworthy in terms of grading.
The hardest climbs are *presumed* to be the hardest until other climber keeps the grade. Upgrading or downgrading happens a lot.

In jumping terms every player that completes the map could be asked a question: 'How hard this map is in relation to all other completed maps'. This score could be saved into the database.
Of course the grading that each player suggest would have a weight that would depend on
* what is the max tier achieved by that player
* how many maps with established grading that player completed

The most extreme maps would become trustworthy extreme if at least one, two or three players would complete them, as anyone can claim 'This is the hardest map'.

*closing*
In my opinion approach described above gives back the ability to properly grade jump maps to the community - but does not require re-grading already existing maps which would be a massive amount of work. This system worked in climbing for more than 40 years.
I'm hoping that this rant is a food for thought for the tempus administrators. If you have any questions - PM me here or write me an email.

*disclaimer*
For the climbing folk - there are some major simplifications (ie. UIAA != french, there are 5a's, 5b's etc.) - kept it simple for the general audience.

In depth description of climbing grades: https://theuiaa.org/documents/sport/THE-SCALES-OF-DIFFICULTY-IN-CLIMBING_p1b.pdf
Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(climbing)
Service (one of many) where climbers 'vote' for routes grading: https://www.8a.nu/

[reero]

Hello,

So I have been jumping on and off since ~2012. I know this is an old game - but I was thinking about map tiers or let's say - jump map grading system.

*current grading system*
Basically jump maps are graded between t1 and t6 - t1 being the easiest, t6 being the hardest (t0 excluded). It means that the grading scale is close ended - ie. on tempus network there are no maps harder than t6 - even if those t6's vary in difficulty. For example demo t3 jump_noob is really different in terms of difficulty than demo t3 jump_ninjacookie.

Hypothetically lets think of a new map that is extremely difficult, more difficult than current t6 maps - it would still be rated as t6 because this is the end of a scale - in my opinion that would not be fair to the players that completed this map as it would be worth the same in ranking points as the other, easier t6 maps.  What happens if we add more tiers then? Lets say t1-t10 system - the same thing would happen  over time - there would be the most extreme t10 map, harder than other t10 maps in the map rooster. In the long run this grading system is stopping innovation as to what the hardest jump map is and how to rank map runs in the player rankings.

*open ended scale*
Actually - similar thing happed in climbing/mountaineering between 1920's and 1980's - but let me describe some similarities between jump maps and climbing routes.
Both jump maps and climbing routes require:
* certain skill set (ex. jumping air pogo, ex. climbing one finger pockets)
* some kind of endurance (A- jump map is generally t2, but with one jump rated as t3 or B- maybe all of the jumps are t3 jumps?)
* overall feeling of difficulty for the ascensionist/jumper that completes the run
Both jump maps and climbing routes are basically an obstacle course.

In the 1920's a german climber created the then close-ended UIAA scale consisting of roman numerals I through VI. With I being the easiest and VI being the most difficult. So over time number of routes graded VI (most extreme) grew - some being easier, some being harder for the grade. This looks similar to the current state of jump maps on tempus.

As the years progressed the VI grade could mean relatively easy route or really extreme route depending on when it was first ascended as the climbers skill expanded. In the end it would be difficult to compare two routes graded VI.  As an answer for this in the 1980's french sport climbers created new, open ended grading system that is based on the UIAA scale.
The grading of the already established routes didn't change. Ie. if the route was graded VI, then it kept its grading.  But the new, harder routes would be graded in 'french scale': 6a, 6b, 6c, 7a, 7b, 7c, 8a , [...] the hardest climbing route is currently graded 9c. More difficult grades are to be expected.

*who grades?*
But who grades the new routes then?  Traditionally the first person to ascent the route - or in jumping terms - the creator of the map suggests the grading - something along the lines of "I think this climb is a 7a" / "I think this is a t3 map" .

This first grade is only a suggestion as the 2nd ascensionist grades the route ie. "This climb is harder than 7a's that I already climbed, I think  it should be graded 7b" / "This map is harder than t3's already completed by me, I think its a t4".

*conclusion*
As the number of ascents raises and each subsequent climber grades the climb, then an average can be calculated. Also, you need to complete the climb to be able to grade, so you need some level of competency.
Climbs with more 'votes' are considered to be more trustworthy in terms of grading.
The hardest climbs are *presumed* to be the hardest until other climber keeps the grade. Upgrading or downgrading happens a lot.

In jumping terms every player that completes the map could be asked a question: 'How hard this map is in relation to all other completed maps'. This score could be saved into the database.
Of course the grading that each player suggest would have a weight that would depend on
* what is the max tier achieved by that player
* how many maps with established grading that player completed

The most extreme maps would become trustworthy extreme if at least one, two or three players would complete them, as anyone can claim 'This is the hardest map'.

*closing*
In my opinion approach described above gives back the ability to properly grade jump maps to the community - but does not require re-grading already existing maps which would be a massive amount of work. This system worked in climbing for more than 40 years.
I'm hoping that this rant is a food for thought for the tempus administrators. If you have any questions - PM me here or write me an email.

*disclaimer*
For the climbing folk - there are some major simplifications (ie. UIAA != french, there are 5a's, 5b's etc.) - kept it simple for the general audience.

In depth description of climbing grades: https://theuiaa.org/documents/sport/THE-SCALES-OF-DIFFICULTY-IN-CLIMBING_p1b.pdf
Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(climbing)
Service (one of many) where climbers 'vote' for routes grading: https://www.8a.nu/

[vov&sons]

Greetings,

Since around 2012, I've been intermittently engaged in the world of jump maps within the context of an older game. These jump maps are typically categorized into tiers, which is akin to a grading system for their difficulty, ranging from t1 (the easiest) to t6 (the most challenging, excluding t0). The present grading system has limitations in that it is finite, and there are no maps designated as more difficult than t6. This means that even if a map were hypothetically created that surpassed the difficulty of existing t6 maps, it would still be classified as t6, which may not be fair to those who successfully complete it. Expanding the tier system to t1-t10 would lead to a similar issue over time, as the most extreme t10 map would likely outclass others in the same tier, eventually stagnating the grading system's ability to distinguish the hardest jump maps and rank player achievements.

An alternative approach that I propose draws parallels with the evolution of the grading system in climbing and mountaineering from the 1920s to the 1980s. Jump maps and climbing routes share several commonalities, including the requirement for specific skill sets, endurance, and an overall assessment of difficulty. In the 1920s, a German climber established a closed-ended grading system based on Roman numerals, where I signified the easiest and VI represented the most difficult routes. This system faced a challenge over time, as VI-graded routes varied significantly in difficulty. To address this, French sport climbers in the 1980s introduced an open-ended grading system based on the UIAA scale, allowing for more precise distinctions, such as 6a, 6b, and so on, with the hardest route now graded as 9c.

Regarding the issue of who grades these new routes or maps, traditionally, the initial ascender, or in the case of jump maps, the map's creator, suggests a grade, such as "I believe this climb is a 7a" or "I think this is a t3 map." However, this initial grade is merely a suggestion, subject to reevaluation by subsequent ascenders. The second ascender may regrade the route based on their experience, stating, "This climb is more challenging than other 7a routes I've completed; I propose it should be graded 7b," or for jump maps, "This map is tougher than other t3 maps I've conquered; I suggest it's a t4."

As more ascents accumulate and climbers or players grade the routes or maps, an average difficulty level can be calculated, creating a more reliable grading system. The credibility of the grade often depends on the number of "votes" or grades it receives. The hardest routes or maps are presumed to be the most challenging until another climber or player surpasses or revises the grade, leading to frequent updates.

In the context of jump maps, this means that every player who completes a map could provide input regarding its difficulty compared to all other completed maps. This score could then be stored in a database. The weight given to each player's grading could be determined by factors such as their highest tier achievement and the number of maps with established grading they've completed. To establish trust in extreme maps, it might require a consensus from at least one, two, or three players before classifying them as the most challenging.

In conclusion, this approach provides a mechanism for the community to accurately grade jump maps, fostering innovation and avoiding the need to regrade existing maps. It's a concept that has worked effectively in climbing for over four decades. I hope that this discussion prompts consideration by the administrators of the platform. For those in the climbing community, I acknowledge there are simplifications in this analogy, such as the UIAA grading system not being the same as the French system, but this is to ensure clarity for a general audience.

If you have any questions or require further information, please feel free to contact me via private message or email.

[Larry]

yeah an open-ended scale would be good, the current t1-10 retiering effort will just kick the skill inflation can down the line

unfortunately you've made a very long post so jump.tf will meme it to death