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jump_heresthecatch

Psychotic Duck

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My first (completed/uploaded) jump map, a (I think) mid T5 soldier map themed around wallcatches/wallsyncs.
13 jumps, 2 bonus
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Download (a5): https://www.mediafire.com/file/1outbhhdq1pjkir/jump_heresthecatch_a5.bsp/file
Download (a4): https://www.mediafire.com/file/a89nbn3yarqbjqo/jump_heresthecatch_a4.bsp/file
Download (a3): https://www.mediafire.com/file/3a7tl5vdhsen44e/jump_heresthecatch_a3.bsp/file
Download (a2a): https://www.mediafire.com/file/y09br4nwa4gjgcf/jump_heresthecatch_a2a.bsp/file
Download (a2): https://www.mediafire.com/file/on8iu9ake9sh3wm/jump_heresthecatch_a2.bsp/file

Feel free to give feedback on crap you like/don't like
« Last Edit: October 18, 2024, 11:13:40 PM by Psychotic Duck »


rica

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(Note that I'm only a t5 jumper so I'm only mentioning the jumps I can beat, since i cant tell if the hard jumps are bad or if im bad)

1. pretty standard jump, not much to say
2. it can be annoying to line yourself up so that you skip the nonade wall, and it feels like too much of a step up from jump 1 especially with the prefire speedshot
3. flatten out the glass ceiling at the end, it can bump you back down if you go too high and it's annoying.

7. the tele floor is very close to the starting platform and it's a little annoying. the overhang at the end is a bit awkward because you are forced to either be really precise or downpogo after the catch instead of maintain your speed
8. the floor before the ramp suggests you are supposed to approach it with speed, but if you go too fast you miss
9. it freezes you at the start for a full second everytime you fail. the jump really depends on how well you can sync but its ok
10. having 2 wallbugs is a bit gimmicky, considering you need to pogo up if you fall too low
12. the wallclimb sequence at the end makes the jump a bit annoying since you have to slowly climb up every time. you can remove the nonade tele part at the end since it doesnt do anything

general map stuff:
the level number on the ground is hard to read with those colors
not sure if its just me but the ramps kept launching me up while i was sliding on them, probably weird clipping issues

cool map tho :thumbsup:


Else

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I got temporarily stuck (like 1s) on some teles after failing a few jumps, but I wasn't able to replicate after testing jumps again so idk what's up with that.

jump 4 has some bad nonade on the sync platform

jump 10 has a really cool strat

connector from last into CP is kinda weak, I'd make the walls shootable after last jump ends.

(jump 10 strat: )


Psychotic Duck

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Updated to a2a to fix some of the easy to fix stuff quickly.
-Added clipping to the ceiling at the end of 3 to make it flat
-Fixed nonade bleeding onto sync platform on jump 4
-Fixed a couple of the bugged teleports
-Removed nonades on the walls post 12 to make transition to control point smoother
-Ran bspzip on the map to compress it down to much smaller size

Questions/comments about feedback:

12) The wallclimb / final teleport/nonade is meant to be a speed test because 12's meant to be a prefire jump (where you prefire at the start before you speedshot). So you're meant to wallclimb up the wall pretty fast. IS there a readability issue with 12, or is 12 pretty easy to bypass without the pre?

Might pose more questions if/when I receive more feedback. Thanks for trying out my map
« Last Edit: September 18, 2024, 03:56:26 PM by Psychotic Duck »


Else

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To me it was slightly ambiguous as to whether you should prefire before the ss or just prefire 2 rockets after the ramp. The latter strat is very doable - it's definitely harder than intended, though. I'm not sure how you could make intended more clear though, and it could just be me overthinking it lol.

 I also found a shitty strat for last that you might want to anticheat


(2nd strat done with TAS for efficiency, but not particularly difficult)


sidenote, connector into CP is much nicer now imo :D


rica

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for the jump 12 nonade platform i meant you can just remove the platform and make the player fall down if they dont make it, imo it just blocks visibility


Psychotic Duck

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Would like to remove the nonade + teleport for visibility on 12, but I think that would make it pretty easy to cheese it by just standing on the ramp and syncing. Maybe I'll turn it into a transparent material or test out retracting the platform back a bit though.
Also wondering if I should buff the end of 12: it is pretty hard without the pre, so it probably doesn't need it, but maybe if it's just too easy generally I could pull back the end platform to make you need more speed to complete the jump.
I think the issue with the ramp on jump 12 is that displacements are weird and buggy - I'll replace the displacement with a func_illusionary + clip brush to try to fix the issue with it.

Jump 10 isn't intended to be done by wallbug, just didn't think much about wallbugs being possible on 10. The slope's meant to cause the jump to flow better. Is this a readability issue with 10?


spoc13

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commenting on a2a...

Overall cool map with a cool focus.

I suggest a change in lighting... in particular the puke green ambient. I'd make the ambient a little softer (lower brightness value) too, and add extra lights to help the jump elements pop. You may need to adjust the lightmap scale of certain brushes to keep compile time reasonable.

1. Maybe add clipping? the 32hu is kind of an awkward middle ground between flush and relief; especially since it lines up with the window. This isn't the only spot with this issue.
2. Need another 128+hu of space between the initial wall and the speedshot.
3. This can be done with a triple to wallshot, if a wallsync is intended you should raise the end. I also suggest making a backwall with a fence/glass texture, nonaded, and bring the wall out so it's not flush. This would improve visibility, as in its current state the start of the grey devtexture is easily confused for the start of the shootable wall.
4. Can be done without using the wall, I'd leave it. If you want the staggered triple, you'll want to extend the spacing and/or add a small ramp at the end of the pogo.
5. Need 128, preferably 256hu of extra space on first wall, but keep spacing between the end and the backwall the same. Ceiling needs raised, as does the end (make back wall catchable). Good jumpers will be able to maintain upward momentum despite the catches. These spacing changes will necessitate spacing changes of the rest of the jump as well.
6. Arrival teleport_destination needs raised 1hu. Move the destination for telesync back 32-64hu. add 256hu of height to the first wallsync wall, and cut the bottom 320hu. (Syncing on the lower bits doesn't provide enough height anyway). Suggest raising everything after the hurdle by 256hu, wallcatch  and end back by 256hu, and end up 128hu.
7. add 256hu of pogo space. Make back wall nonade instead of tp. I'd also raise the end a bit and the wall, will make the map more fun to speedrun (very easy to be very high when coming into the wallcatch).
8. You need more speed to get any mileage on this jump. Add another wallshot or skip to the setup. Suggest removing skip space prior to ramp but leaving the wall. Need indicator on back wall to give players a target to reference while setting up the sync.
9. Fav jump. Raise ceiling 512+hu, extend mid wall, move end further and 128hu higher.
10. no comment, its a good jump. Assuming wallbug is intended. Not sure what intended is here if not wallbug.
(ok, i think i was able to do it inteded. This jump is scuffed. Needs a full rework imo.)
11. flushness of wallsync, see my comment for 3. Otherwise, easy to have too much height for diagonal walls (esp. inside wall) so raise them. You can also raise the ceiling and put the end much higher.
12. Move start back 128hu. Add indicator for the sync on the back wall. In my experience, this is approx 576hu off the floor. Also ramp is buggy, remake it.

A comment on detailing for readability - decide on whether your walls will be flush or in relief relative to the sides, and be consistent about it. This will improve the readability of the map greatly. If you choose to make them all in relief, consider adding extra playerclips to help guide players, and use a unique texture on the sides to differentiate them from both the side room wall and the place where rockets will hit.

I look forward to playing an updated version! Also, T5 is accurate imo.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2024, 01:02:55 AM by spoc13 »


Psychotic Duck

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Updated to a3, tweaked a bunch of jumps. Changes include:

 General:  - Changed the color correct; red is less dominant over blue and the puke green is more cyanish now
                  - Changed the textures of the jump numbers to light textures to improve visibility
                  - Relief walls now have a unique texture on their sides to improve readability
Jump 2:  Moved start back to space speedshot better
Jump 3:  End was raised in order to require wallsync on the wall
Jump 5:  Raised ceiling so that good catches aren't punished
Jump 6:  Fixed start teleport; raised both shootable walls
Jump 7:  Extended pogo section; changed back wall from teleport to nonade; raised end and back wall
Jump 8:  Removed the pogo next to the ramp to improve readability
Jump 9:  Raised ceiling; extended hanging wall back; moved end back and a bit up
Jump 11:  Raised ceiling; raised angle of diagonal wall, moved end up
Jump 12:  Moved start back to space speedshot better; fixed the ramp bugginess; added anti-telesync to the start of the jump
Bonus 1:  Lowered starting platform and end by the same amount
« Last Edit: September 26, 2024, 04:43:09 PM by Psychotic Duck »


Psychotic Duck

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About changes I didn't make:

When it comes to making all walls either relief or flush, I simultaneously don't know which one would fit this map better and think that having walls be flush vs relief does change how the jump is done, namely having relief walls somewhat encourage opposite side catches (feel free to tell me if this is nonsense).

Jump 1: Recommended changes are ambiguous to me
Jump 3, 11: Didn't change the wall itself because readability issue seems weird when textures are consistent (the gray is always nonade)
Jump 4: Saving a potential Jump 4 tweak for future versions, as I am not sure about it.
Jump 5: I found the spacing on the first wall to work pretty well (I do launch -> 2 wallshots). I use stock rather than original, if that explains the difference at all.
Jump 6: I like the challenge of getting your speed just right on the second set of walls, and moving them forwards would remove that challenge.
Jump 8: Adding in another speed boost could remove the need to triple catch the end wall / wallsync the wall at the ramp (both of which are intended).
Jump 10: Saving a potential jump 10 rework for future versions.
Jump 12: Can't find a clean way to retract the ceiling without causing potential issues with cheese


spoc13

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- Note on ambiguous changes... I think you were confused with the in relief/flush comments. I can explain further if you'd like. There is now a unique texture on the sides on the relief walls though which is nice.
- Green is still puke but i do see that it is brighter
- A lot of the jump reset destinations are too close to the edge. Move them back. Jumps with this issue will be marked with * in below comments.
- You need indications for where to sync in many places, will improve readability. Jumps that need this will be marked below with ^.

1-3: fine (2^)
4: I think triple off the pogo is still possible, but it is harder. I do one wallshot right on the top of the wall.
5: Feels better with raised ceiling.
6*: only need one wallshot off last wall to fin, so speed doesn't matter. This is why I recommended the end changes. It is likely possible to maintain height rather than have a controlled descent with a second wallsync.
7: pogo section feels a little far now, but works well. Ceiling needs raised. Possible to do without catch on last wall, instead with just one wallshot. Recommend adding hurdle between the walls.

https://youtu.be/n7UKDXdSt2Y

8^: feels better. add 128-256hu of space between start and ramp.
9: good
10: waiting
11*: Inner diag wall needs to be higher than outside diag wall. End can be moved up further.
12^: good


Psychotic Duck

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- Note on ambiguous changes... I think you were confused with the in relief/flush comments. I can explain further if you'd like. There is now a unique texture on the sides on the relief walls though which is nice.
- Green is still puke but i do see that it is brighter
- A lot of the jump reset destinations are too close to the edge. Move them back. Jumps with this issue will be marked with * in below comments.
- You need indications for where to sync in many places, will improve readability. Jumps that need this will be marked below with ^.

1-3: fine (2^)
4: I think triple off the pogo is still possible, but it is harder. I do one wallshot right on the top of the wall.
5: Feels better with raised ceiling.
6*: only need one wallshot off last wall to fin, so speed doesn't matter. This is why I recommended the end changes. It is likely possible to maintain height rather than have a controlled descent with a second wallsync.
7: pogo section feels a little far now, but works well. Ceiling needs raised. Possible to do without catch on last wall, instead with just one wallshot. Recommend adding hurdle between the walls.

https://youtu.be/n7UKDXdSt2Y

8^: feels better. add 128-256hu of space between start and ramp.
9: good
10: waiting
11*: Inner diag wall needs to be higher than outside diag wall. End can be moved up further.
12^: good


For the ambiguity, I'm talking about the recommended changes to jump 1 in particular - where I would add clipping to make the jump flow better.
A further explanation for relief vs flush would be nice though, and could help me see why I would want to make all of the walls either one or the other.

I forgot to comment about this in my previous reply - but I didn't add in wallsync indicators because the height at which you need to wallsync varies a bit depending on how you did the jump section beforehand (so an indicator might be sometimes misleading). Maybe I'll still add a set of indicators to serve as reference points even if a single indicator doesn't work as a directive.

(Edit: Separated the different parts of the reply)


spoc13

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Relief vs flush: I'm using the art/sculptural definition of relief, and a woodworking definition of flush, as they are the best ways to describe what I mean.

When two pieces are "flush," one face of one of the pieces lies on the same 2D plane as the face from the other, and they face the same direction. As an example, consider the wallshot on jump 4 in _a3: the brush that you can shoot is flush with the other grey brushes you cannot use.

When something is 'in relief,' it is accentuated by being physically removed from the a surface ('the sculpted pieces remain attached to a solid background of the same material,' Wikipedia). An example where you have walls in relief is jump 9 in _a3. The wall on which you sync is 64hu in relief (I consider this to be moderate relief).

The distinction is important for readability: Consider the case in which there is a feature along a wall, and you are approaching it along said wall. If it is flush, you need to get pretty close to it to understand that there is a feature and time your shot, or instead approach it from a steep angle off the wall. If it is in relief, you may need to do some extra work to use it properly (strafe); but you will physically see it sticking out from the wall from most approach angles, get a better sense of how you are approaching it, and understand easily that it is meant to be considered as a feature in the first place due to its placement perfectly in view.

In the grand scheme of jump mapping, it doesn't matter too much, especially at higher tiers where readability isn't a prime focus and most jumpers are used to different mapping grammar. but picking one style of relief and being consistent about it may improve the readability significantly.

Final note about indicators - its not about where the sync actually is, it is: 1. telling players there is something important about the wall from afar (that you sync there), and 2. Gives players a reference point to aim from once they know where they will do the sync (because this is much harder to do when the wall is one solid texture). You don't need this on all the walls (note that many jumps were exempt from my indicators comment, despite having wallsyncs). Just the ones where the sync happens on a very large surface that is hard to gauge (and esp if the sync is staggered) are important to have indicators on.



Psychotic Duck

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Updated to a4, lots of changes incoming. Changes include:

New Jumps: 2? new jumps
    -New Jump 4: Wallsync under ceiling and wall jump
    -New Bonus 2: Drop telesync (untested)
General:
    -Changed some parameters on the light_env entity
    -Added wallsync indicators so a few jumps
    -Moved back the teleports on a few jumps
Jump 4 5: Moved shootable wall and sync platform back (sync platform moved back more than the wall) - this at least makes not using the wallcatch very tight
Jump 6 7: Moved second wall down + back, moved end up + back - make you need wallcatch, and also a buff to the jump because it was too easy on a3
Jump 7 8: Raised ceiling, moved end + end wall back down 128Hu - raising the wall went against the point of the jump, ceiling raise might allow for triple wallcatch setups on the second wall with enough finesse
Jump 8 9: Moved start back 128Hu, extended ramp walls forward by 64Hu - spacing correction for same-side wallsync (old spacing only worked for opposite side)
Jump 9 10: Lowered ceiling at the start to prevent triple cheese (ceiling height unchanged for the rest of the jump)
Jump 10 11: Reworked; jump is more well rounded, end overhauled, ceiling raised amongst other changes
Jump 11 12: Added momentum cancelling teleport

hope you guys enjoy the map update


Psychotic Duck

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Like with a3, an explanation on some odd changes/changes not made.

Jump 8: I chose to lower the end wall again over adding a hurdle in the middle because constantly raising everything on jump 8 was making jump 8 less unique and feel a bit similar to 7. Maybe the idea of having you catch low just isn't the right thing to do with a pogo -> ramp start, but I wanted Jump 8 to stand out against the other jumps so I decided to try to keep the idea of catching low. Tried to add more wiggle room to allow for potential speed strats.

Jump 11: From what I could gather, it seemed like the problem with the original jump was the awkwardness of the direction changes combined with poor readability - making the jump rather awkward as a result. The rework should make the jump flow better from start to finish while still keeping the original idea of the jump.

Jump 12 (Pre-Last): I didn't make any changes to the structure of 12 itself because of the concern that increasing the relative height of the inside wall relative to the outside wall would make the outside wall completely worthless, or at the very least only good for a bad start that might not make it at all with a raised end anyways.

Eventually once the to-do list on individual jumps is small enough, I'm planning on making a visual/readability update, where I'm planning on changing the lighting a little (particularly intending to brighten up the ends of a lot of the jumps) and possibly making all of the walls relief (and finally working to get my map compiled with normal vrad, because I've had to compile with fast vrad due to memory limitations of vrad). Would also be nice if someone could give feedback about either of the bonuses if they're able to.

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